The high end Chinese Shoe Thread

[saurabh]

Those are better than JR anyway. Thanks for posting!

Exactly my C&J handgrades, EG, G&G all use bakers so I like them better too.

 

[Notch]

Just saw this, and I wanted to mention that in my collaboration with Oct. Tenth, thus far we have never offered JR soles, and also stopped offering Baker oak soles because of the difficult logistics. Any customer is free to send in a pair of outsoles from JR or Baker, and they will use those. The supply of JR soles is simply too unreliable in China.

I'll enquire with the factory again on how we might start doing this as an option, but I have received great comments on the leather outsoles that we use now.

 

[dench127]

Exactly my C&J handgrades, EG, G&G all use bakers so I like them better too.

I thought that EG used unbranded JR. Is that not the case?

 

[JohnMRobie]

Quick run to the tailor on a casual rainy day. Yeossal burgundy hatch on YC3 1/2 size smaller than I typically wear to get a good fit. Breaking in nicely.

 

[Zapasman]

I thought that EG used unbranded JR. Is that not the case?

Never.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Exactly my C&J handgrades, EG, G&G all use bakers so I like them better too.

Are C&J HG really using the regular oak bark tanned Baker soles? My experience was always that they wear out quicker than other shoes I have with Baker soles, and understand many others have the same experience. And have had mixed info from "official" C&J channels so I've never really been sure.

 

[saurabh]

Are C&J HG really using the regular oak bark tanned Baker soles? My experience was always that they wear out quicker than other shoes I have with Baker soles, and understand many others have the same experience. And have had mixed info from "official" C&J channels so I've never really been sure.

Not 100% sure and C&J NY store did say to me many years ago that it was using the bakers oak bark soles.
I also looked at the website and it mentions using the bark tanned soles. Not sure if this can also be another tannery than Bakers.

Men's Bark Tanned Leather Sole

Our men’s soles for Hand Grade shoes are produced with a traditional, slow bark tannage, which improves the fibres and enhances flexibility.

us.crockettandjones.com

Sole Guide

Sole Guide The Crockett & Jones sole guide brings together our wide variety of soles on offer, in one place. Regardless of the occasion or footwear requirements, our choice of sole always has our customers in mind. A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION With the growth of the rubber sole, today, our...

us.crockettandjones.com

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Not 100% sure and C&J NY store did say to me many years ago that it was using the bakers oak bark soles.
I also looked at the website and it mentions using the bark tanned soles. Not sure if this can also be another tannery than Bakers.

Men's Bark Tanned Leather Sole

Our men’s soles for Hand Grade shoes are produced with a traditional, slow bark tannage, which improves the fibres and enhances flexibility.

us.crockettandjones.com

Sole Guide

Sole Guide The Crockett & Jones sole guide brings together our wide variety of soles on offer, in one place. Regardless of the occasion or footwear requirements, our choice of sole always has our customers in mind. A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION With the growth of the rubber sole, today, our...

us.crockettandjones.com

Yeah they are oak bark tanned, but I'd thought from some other tannery or perhaps Baker but not standard spec. I'm not sure either though.

 

[Zapasman]

Are C&J HG really using the regular oak bark tanned Baker soles? My experience was always that they wear out quicker than other shoes I have with Baker soles, and understand many others have the same experience. And have had mixed info from "official" C&J channels so I've never really been sure.

The few HG pairs I have/had seems to be equal to my EG leather soles. I see no reason to buy oak barked tanned soles outside of UK having Baker tannery around.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

The few HG pairs I have/had seems to be equal to my EG leather soles. I see no reason to buy oak barked tanned soles outside of UK having Baker tannery around.

Yeah, and I've heard that experience from others as well, it's been both ways. Well I will make sure I remember to ask about it next time I'm in contact with someone from the factory, so I can get some piece in my mind ?

 

[bengal-stripe]

Not 100% sure and C&J NY store did say to me many years ago that it was using the bakers oak bark soles.

Men's Bark Tanned Leather Sole

Our men’s soles for Hand Grade shoes are produced with a traditional, slow bark tannage, which improves the fibres and enhances flexibility.

us.crockettandjones.com

It doesn't say anywhere oak bark, just bark tanned leather, so it could well be chestnut bark which is the main tanning agent in Mediterranean countries. The use of Oak bark has become very rare, as far as I know Rendenbach does not use oak bark but acorns.

I do not think anyone should dismiss chestnut per se, it is probably more the care and time taken than the actual ingredients which account for the quality of the finished hides. The London shop "Lodger" (now defunct) did once a comparison between oak and chestnut as tanning agents and, if I remember correctly, chestnut did beat oak by a small margin. Garat&Fils is the premium French veg tannery. In their company logo they feature a stylized tree (more oak than chestnut) but on their website they state that they did change at some point from oak to chestnut.

Tanning, which in the past used locally harvested oak bark, has gradually adopted chestnut-bark extracts for pit tanning.
This type of tannin is best suited for sole leather and for high-quality vegetable-tanned products.

» Vegetable Tanned Leather | Garat Leather Tannery

www.tannerie-garat.com

As far as I know, Bakers is too small a company with insufficient output, as to be the supplier for any large shoe manufacturer. Bakers is used by virtually every bespoke shoemaker in the UK, but the only manufacturer they supply is G&G. But of course, manufacturers do change their suppliers frequently for good (better quality, more reliable supply) as well as for bad reasons (cheaper, although of lesser quality). My information might be out of date.

 

[jischwar]

To add, CJ emailed me this am and said they won't disclose who makes their soles, but just that they assure me they "only use the best tanneries in UK and Europe". On a separate note, was discussing with another member here, do you all know which makes use veg tan insoles and linings and which use chrome tanned?

 

[j ingevaldsson]

It doesn't say anywhere oak bark, just bark tanned leather, so it could well be chestnut bark which is the main tanning agent in Mediterranean countries. The use of Oak bark has become very rare, as far as I know Rendenbach does not use oak bark but acorns.

I do not think anyone should dismiss chestnut per se, it is probably more the care and time taken than the actual ingredients which account for the quality of the finished hides. The London shop "Lodger" (now defunct) did once a comparison between oak and chestnut as tanning agents and, if I remember correctly, chestnut did beat oak by a small margin. Garat&Fils is the premium French veg tannery. In their company logo they feature a stylized tree (more oak than chestnut) but on their website they state that they did change at some point from oak to chestnut.

» Vegetable Tanned Leather | Garat Leather Tannery

www.tannerie-garat.com

As far as I know, Bakers is too small a company with insufficient output, as to be the supplier for any large shoe manufacturer. Bakers is used by virtually every bespoke shoemaker in the UK, but the only manufacturer they supply is G&G. But of course, manufacturers do change their suppliers frequently for good (better quality, more reliable supply) as well as for bad reasons (cheaper, although of lesser quality). My information might be out of date.

Good post! Yeah, come to think about it, doesn't EG use JR soles?

Like you say if it's chestnut, oak bark or acorn tanned doesn't matter that much, it's the process and amount of time in the pits that matters the most here I believe. Garat's soles that you mentioned (which are chestnut tanned yes) are excellent, and know many makers love them since you can specify the fat percentage, making them a pleasure to work with. And Weston's chestnut tanned soles are amazing. But you can chestnut tan soles for two-three months as well and they are not at all the same quality, so it's not a terminology working to determine things here.

On the topic, my G&G bespoke chukkas have Baker sole on one shoe and Garat on the other. Doing real life testing on endurance ?

 

[clee1982]

damn, in the name of science...

 

[j ingevaldsson]

damn, in the name of science...

Someone have to step up and do the job.. ?