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The Future of Dressing Well

topbroker

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I am concerned about many aspects of the future -- who isn't? -- and one of them, of minor import perhaps but still interesting, is the future of men dressing well. I am not concerned for the usual reasons put forward -- that younger men are not interested in sartorial matters (actually, some of them are) or that "business casual" has destroyed the culture of dressing well for work. Rather, I am concerned that we are not producing enough of the sort of men that will take to dressing well as professional statement, self-expression, and pleasurable hobby. It seems to me that the inclination to be a sartorialist depends on two main underpinnings besides sheer taste: Confidence, and money. Those in turn rest largely on the opportunity to make a good career for oneself, and that is where I think the problem lies. Certainly we are in an economic contraction now, and just as certainly we will "come out of it" eventually; but we may be emerging into a vastly different, just-in-time world where the possibility of a stable professional career is a mere dream for most. If there is no job to dress for, no job to feel pride in, and no job to provide the disposable cash for buying, the sartorial bent loses its relevance to many potential adherents.

My unscientific guess based on reading the menswear boards is that the sartorial habit is strongest among lawyers, bankers, and business executives, with a smaller but still significant appeal to certain academics, journalists, politicians, public officials, medical professionals, and "creative types." Unfortunately, there is a contraction of career opportunities going on in many of those fields; for example, the difficulties that current law school graduates are having in finding decent legal employment have been widely reported (and yet, such is the nature of human hopefulness, the number of law school applicants and attendees continues to go steadily up, further crowding the field for future job-seekers).

The economic prospects for university graduates -- not just in America, but around the world, such as in Korea where I am now living -- are, to put it as mildly as possible, not what they once were. The sartorial inclination does not absolutely require a sizable income, as many wily buyers who post here at Style Forum can attest -- but without doubt, sizable incomes are a great boon to the hobby and help it to thrive. If fewer men have access to that type of income, that undoubtedly has its effect on the way they dress. And if employment and incomes are not steady, but contingent and intermittent, that goes a long way toward destroying the confidence that dressing well expresses. If you feel like crap about your life, the panache of your tie knot doesn't matter much.

My personal experience is perhaps slightly instructive. Although I have three degrees from excellent universities, I never aimed for the big money, and I never made it. However, I definitely had stretches of time when I was quite comfortable, and therefore an enthusiastic consumer. In the past ten years, though, a series of changes in fortune variously attributable to mergers, business closings, shrinking commissions, governmental financial crises, etc., have economically marginalized me to the extent that I am now out of North America altogether, teaching ESL to adults at a private academy in Korea. My career prospects are much better in the world-at-large than at home, and I expect to be teaching at a Korean university after my current contract ends; going abroad seems to have been a smart move, and I am encouraged by that. Still, I am at the point right now when a hundred dollars is a lot of money to me, and that is just not a circumstance that encourages sartorialism.

However, at least I do have a job and some forward prospects. I suspect that there is a reasonably big group of los desaparecidos from the menswear boards who simply stop posting because the economy has taken them away. A lot of highly educated and experienced people that I know have taken a lot of whacks. The loss of confidence that I see in them is quite distressing. And an unconfident society is unlikely to be a sartorially distinguished one.
 

voxsartoria

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colin+powell+coin+2.jpg



- B
 

chasingred

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I think you might be overstating it.

Professional service sectors and knowledge-based services are the sections of the economy that have been growing the most for the last 20-30 years. We're experiencing a financial downturn now, but there's no reason to say that professional services are in permanent decline. What's in decline, at least for advanced industrial economies, is manufacturing - essentially blue collar work. The professions you named are all the areas that are largely going to grow in the future.
 

topbroker

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Originally Posted by chasingred
I think you might be overstating it.

Professional service sectors and knowledge-based services are the sections of the economy that have been growing the most for the last 20-30 years. We're experiencing a financial downturn now, but there's no reason to say that professional services are in permanent decline. What's in decline, at least for advanced industrial economies, is manufacturing - essentially blue collar work. The professions you named are all the areas that are largely going to grow in the future.


You must not be reading the same economists that I'm reading. Professional services and knowledge-based services are particularly vulnerable to outsourcing, offshoring, just-in-time and project-based hiring models, and so on.

There is a quite separate debate about whether you can have a robust national economy without making anything. I don't think I'll engage that debate, but I will say that the notion that manufacturing jobs are all blue-collar jobs is incorrect. I worked for a manufacturing company that had a huge range of professional jobs. We employed five times as many white-collar workers as blue-collar ones. Factories are largely automated nowadays. It is quite possible to lose blue-collar manufacturing jobs without losing manufacturing companies. But America is losing both.
 

scruff

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Originally Posted by topbroker
You must not be reading the same economists that I'm reading. Professional services and knowledge-based services are particularly vulnerable to outsourcing, offshoring, just-in-time and project-based hiring models, and so on.

There is a quite separate debate about whether you can have a robust national economy without making anything. I don't think I'll engage that debate, but I will say that the notion that manufacturing jobs are all blue-collar jobs is incorrect. I worked for a manufacturing company that had a huge range of professional jobs. We employed five times as many white-collar workers as blue-collar ones. Factories are largely automated nowadays. It is quite possible to lose blue-collar manufacturing jobs without losing manufacturing companies. But America is losing both.


Quite the non-rebuttal.
 

topbroker

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Originally Posted by landshark
How exactly would we be able to outsource lawyers or medical professionals?

You haven't heard of Indian lawyers and doctors handling document review for American law firms and hospitals? There must have been hundreds of news stories about this.
 

amplifiedheat

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Originally Posted by landshark
How exactly would we be able to outsource lawyers or medical professionals?
The clerical/administrative end of both wouldn't be too hard to ship overseas--it doesn't matter much whether an HMO is in Atlanta or Jakarta. Legal questions aren't all that likely to require in-person contact, either. I will admit, though, the whole "representing people in court" and "physically examining people for diseases" model is resistant to change.
 

chasingred

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Originally Posted by topbroker
You haven't heard of Indian lawyers and doctors handling document review for American law firms and hospitals? There must have been hundreds of news stories about this.

If you actually dig up the actual numbers, the number of jobs being outsourced is incredibly small compared to the total economy. There are jobs being destroyed because many advanced industrial economies seeing sectors lose out to foreign companies in China, India, Mexico, etc. But those are their domestic industries, not direct outsourcing. Now, of course, this all depends what you determine to be outsourcing. But that's a really long discussion.

Really, I think you're overblowing it. It's drawn up in sensational news stories, but the numbers, when you actually dig them up, just aren't there.

The growth of services is what's driving most advanced economies. It has been for about thirty years, and will be for some time. Essentially, the only real advantage rich countries have now is in knowledge work, and we produce the best of it. To date, most innovation happens in Western countries, particularly breakthrough, not incremental, ones.

There's a ton of material on this. Just Google "productivity and service sectors" to look at some of the actual numbers. From there, you can find wage and job creation growth. What we're seeing now is just a blip.

http://www.brookings.edu/press/Books...cessector.aspx

But yes, people dress more casually. It has nothing to do with the "decline of services," however.
 

fxh

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Originally Posted by topbroker

The economic prospects for university graduates -- not just in America, but around the world, such as in Korea where I am now living -- are, to put it as mildly as possible, not what they once were.


This is where the sekret Australian world domination plan now comes into play. We don't have a recession.

We are flush.

We have a skills shortage.

The aud$ is so strong we can import shoes from UK as if they were throwaway plastic food containers (many of the shoes here actually are plastic containers from what I can see).

If the USA postal service was as efficient as the UK Royal Mail we could also import blue button down oxfords like they were going out of fashion (they aren't are they?) because our $ is nearly at parity.

Because our $ is strong the price of wool will go up (you know all the wool in the world comes from here) - therefore the price of suits will go up around the world, flannel pants will go up, odd jackets will be more expensive.

USA iGents will be forced to wear rayon suits and blazers made out of dyed Hessian - which will have the dual effect of both looking better than most stuff youse wear AND being genuinely traditional.

We Australians are preparing to snaffle up cheap airfares, fly over to your declining economies, strut around in our superior wool cloth, handmade shirts by the dozen, and goodyear welted double monks, throw our $ around like it was plastic (as it is), seduce a (cleaned up naturally) selected elite of your men and women, buy your devalued empty houses, drink your.. (cross that out nothing worth drinking over there that we haven't got better and cheaper over here), and sneer at your obesity epidemic, whilst flashing our excessive cheaply acquired mismatching pocket squares with more sprezz than you'll find in the Sydney Gay Mardi Gras.

Its only just begun.
 

chasingred

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Originally Posted by amplifiedheat
The clerical/administrative end of both wouldn't be too hard to ship overseas--it doesn't matter much whether an HMO is in Atlanta or Jakarta. Legal questions aren't all that likely to require in-person contact, either. I will admit, though, the whole "representing people in court" and "physically examining people for diseases" model is resistant to change.

This is beside the point. It's not about whether you can ship service work overseas. Of course it's possible. It's easier to ship services overseas than it is manufacturing, and manufacturing gets shipped around a lot. As long as there are ICT lines, there will be services shipped around.

The point is who does these services the best. It's going to be a long, long, long time before China and India start making lawyers that are up to snuff with Yale and Harvard law school graduates. The best engineers are also still trained in the US. The idea that services can be shipped around, in fact, is an argument for why services will grow in America, as we have many of the best knowledge workers.
 

fxh

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Originally Posted by chasingred
The point is who does these services the best. It's going to be a long, long, long time before China and India start making lawyers that are up to snuff with Yale and Harvard law school graduates. The best engineers are also still trained in the US. The idea that services can be shipped around, in fact, is an argument for why services will grow in America, as we have many of the best knowledge workers.

You believe this?
 

Mikael

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While I understand the sentiment of the original post, I don't see financial issues as the main ingredient. To elaborate, I work in a junior position in a semi-big local company, my salary and expenses are such that I have to put money aside for a couple of months to be able to buy a pair of C&Js. However, given the fact that the quality is superior, I see it more as an investment than expenditure - I know I'll get years and years out of that pair.

In fact, there's a saying where I come from, roughly translated as: "The poor can't afford to buy cheap", meaning exactly that the less money you have, the more you should invest in quality. As in, forget about the IKEA lifestyle and buying everything anew every couple of years. Instead, save up, find quality items, and be happy with them for a couple of decades.

As to the younger generations losing interest in classic style, I'd go as far to say that it's just coming back, and I see a lot of younger people making an extra effort to nail the little things, perhaps as a means of getting a leg up on the older gents.
 

JensenH

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Originally Posted by topbroker
You haven't heard of Indian lawyers and doctors handling document review for American law firms and hospitals? There must have been hundreds of news stories about this.

Also medical tourists who go oversea for surgeries.
 

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