(jmswentworth @ April 26 2005,11:02) Why do I bother to reply to someone who thinks I am stupid? Unwarranted? You are the one who questioned my intellect. I am willing to discuss the matter, but why should I be insulted. You were rude to me, plain and simple. The UK, France, and US are all very close to achieving it. Especially with the vast number of new immigrants to the UK in particular. As the gentry becomes ever stronger, and the Conservative Party ideology becomes more and more of a truth, day by day.(On as side note, the UK may only achieve civilization with the election of The Conservatives, a win for Labor will take us back several rungs on the ladder.). The US is also close to archiving civilisation as a society of upper, middle, and lower class becomes established. However, it is impossible to say that this is the US's own civilisation, today's west could be said to be a Civilisation, no single country, at this stage. jm, struggling to follow you logic 1. if more new immigrants come to the UK, it may become a "civillization"? please explain logic 2. if conservatives win in UK, it may become "civilization"? please explain 3. whole concept of "gentry" in civillization Â - please explain All points have allready been explained.