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The CM Graveyard: First Sartoria Partenopea... next J. Crew?

clee1982

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For the record, I don’t like Eidos field jacket either, must be my height or something, i’m fairly thin, must be the button point or my height, all the field jacket makes me look bloated or buttoning point is off...
 

bry2000

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My comment about Ragosta, etc had nothing to do with my opinion of Eidos or Ragosta. I was merely asking whether the guy’s objection to the outfits the Cavs players were wearing had to do with the fact that they were made by TB or that they were all the same. So I substituted the TB clothes for clothes that are well liked on SF and that are mainstream to see.

Not sure how that triggered that type of reaction or why I was called a jerk. But whatever.
 

dieworkwear

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If I've misinterpreted your posts, I apologize.

Anyway, regarding the Cavs, it's mostly about TB. I love that Lebron James is wearing TB and that he, like some other NBA players, are making it more acceptable for guys to like fashion. But I think he would look better in different clothes.

Although I feel like this is true of many celebrities right now. They get kitted out and it looks awkward. You can tell there's some stylist behind the scene that says "wear this and this and this." The end result looks totally unnatural.

A counterexample is John Mayer, who is clearly into clothes and wears Visvim. But since it comes from a genuine place, it doesn't look weird on him.
 
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LA Guy

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I think that it's fun that they played with fashion, but yeah, they look terrible. I remember, and can't find it now, that Thom Browne. said that his clothes were not for everyone, and I think that this is a great example. Tom Ford would suit athletes a lot better. I've seen Lebron look good in TB sweaters, but that's about it.
 

IJReilly

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Clothing is contextual. Certain things look great on some people in some settings, and the opposite is of course also true. For a suit cut as distinctly as one from Thom Browne, this is very much going to be the case. Personally, I've seen it look great on some people (especially the man himself). It seems you have to be quite slim and have a certain coloration to harmonize with the monochrome style. I would look like an idiot in Thom Browne, but that does not stop me from appreciating his suits.
 

Riva

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Clothing is contextual. Certain things look great on some people in some settings, and the opposite is of course also true. For a suit cut as distinctly as one from Thom Browne, this is very much going to be the case. Personally, I've seen it look great on some people (especially the man himself). It seems you have to be quite slim and have a certain coloration to harmonize with the monochrome style. I would look like an idiot in Thom Browne, but that does not stop me from appreciating his suits.
TB jackets are very hard to pull off. You gotta be really skinny to fit in. Maybe fits Paul Smith fans. I know I can't thus why I'm selling a TB jacket that I got off Ebay.
 

Riva

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What the hell are you talking about? You are having a bit of an overreaction to an off the cuff comment I made. Relax bro. It’s just clothes. You’ll live.
It's Derek. You'll get used to it :)
 

Aquafortis

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I think that it's fun that they played with fashion, but yeah, they look terrible. I remember, and can't find it now, that Thom Browne. said that his clothes were not for everyone, and I think that this is a great example. Tom Ford would suit athletes a lot better. I've seen Lebron look good in TB sweaters, but that's about it.
They obviously can wear whatever they want, no matter how bad of a styling choice it was. Can someone please enlighten me to what makes the TB suits so distinct or novel, from any other dime-a-dozen skinny suit on the market, except for the short leg hems? Seems to me, they could wear Borrelli and look a thousand times better -but then it would be a label that a means practically nothing to the folks who pay attention to, and care about capital "F" fashion.
 

LA Guy

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They obviously can wear whatever they want, no matter how bad of a styling choice it was. Can someone please enlighten me to what makes the TB suits so distinct or novel, from any other dime-a-dozen skinny suit on the market, except for the short leg hems? Seems to me, they could wear Borrelli and look a thousand times better -but then it would be a label that a means practically nothing to the folks who pay attention to, and care about capital "F" fashion.
Thom Browne. suits are deliberately "shrunken". They are supposed to look like you just grew a bit out of them. When I think of them in their original form, I always thought of Wes Anderson's movies, especially Rushmore. tbh, they were a very distinct and interesting look when they first came out, and especially on Thom Browne., who is slight and also shorter. They are not meant to flatter in the way say, Tom Ford, which is hyper-everything, do. They are nerdy, not sexy. LeBron clearly gets this - he often pairs his Thom Browne with matching glasses. And it's interesting seeing the most athletic guys wearing suits that deliberately under-flatter them. But in this case, they just look odd. Frankly, I'd like to see them go full Versace or something.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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They obviously can wear whatever they want, no matter how bad of a styling choice it was. Can someone please enlighten me to what makes the TB suits so distinct or novel, from any other dime-a-dozen skinny suit on the market, except for the short leg hems? Seems to me, they could wear Borrelli and look a thousand times better -but then it would be a label that a means practically nothing to the folks who pay attention to, and care about capital "F" fashion.
It's easy to call them a dime-a-dozen now because guys like him influenced the market. At the time he came out, there was a certain look that was really popular -- kind of effete, almost boyish look. Fok's reference to Wes Anderson is a good one.

Guys like Raf Simons and Hedi Slimane slimmed the suit, but Thom Browne really popularized a short-jacket, short-trouser look. And you still see that short trouser thing going on today, especially in casualwear.

Like with everything in fashion, the TB look cycled from what's new to what's current to what's old. Guys who are into CM were never going to like the look, but there was a moment when the TB silhouette looked really interesting. I mean, he won a CFDA award for it and even got a Brooks Brothers subline.

James Laver wrote about fashion cycles in 1945. It's mostly about womenswear, but you can see the same, general cycle happen in men's clothing. This is Lavar's cycle for how a garment is seen over time.

10 years before its time: indecent
5 years before its time: shameless
1 year before its time: daring
‘Current Fashion’: smart
1 year after its time: dowdy
10 years after its time: hideous
20 years after its time: ridiculous
30 years after its time: amusing
50 years after its time: quaint
70 years after its time: charming
100 years after its time: romantic
150 years after its time: beautiful

CM has its own trends. Cutaway collars, double monks, Neapolitan tailoring, spalla camicia, open quarters, etc. They move at a much slower pace, but a lot of the stuff that's considered canonically classic were just trends during their heyday (e.g. the Mod look). It's just that we're so far out from those trends that now we consider them charming, romantic, and beautiful.

Anyway, I think the TB look is mostly bad now because it's over its prime.
 

Aquafortis

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Thom Browne. suits are deliberately "shrunken". They are supposed to look like you just grew a bit out of them. When I think of them in their original form, I always thought of Wes Anderson's movies, especially Rushmore. tbh, they were a very distinct and interesting look when they first came out, and especially on Thom Browne., who is slight and also shorter. They are not meant to flatter in the way say, Tom Ford, which is hyper-everything, do. They are nerdy, not sexy. LeBron clearly gets this - he often pairs his Thom Browne with matching glasses. And it's interesting seeing the most athletic guys wearing suits that deliberately under-flatter them. But in this case, they just look odd. Frankly, I'd like to see them go full Versace or something.
Thanks Fok. I guess that fits right in with what seems to be a social wave right now in the popularity of caricature on the one hand, and the authenticity (some call it traditional) backlash on the other. The TB suit styling, at least the way you describe it, to me is really indicative of a rise in a very twisted, artificial sense of beauty and aesthetics in the mainstream - think of the trend to get plastic surgery to make oneself look more like your Snapchat filter images. And cosplay seems like another good example of this. On the other hand, the resurgence of interest in bespoke, in the hand-crafted, in what is perceived as (or actually is) more "authentic".

As a recent example of this contrast in the mainstream fashion world, I have to think about last weekend's RL 50th Anniversary show in Central Park. 50 years later and RL is still directing tasteful, modern takes on the core of the house style, with styling that were more or less honest representations of the influences behind the "dream" being portrayed.
 

Aquafortis

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It's easy to call them a dime-a-dozen now because guys like him influenced the market. At the time he came out, there was a certain look that was really popular -- kind of effete, almost boyish look. Fok's reference to Wes Anderson is a good one.

Guys like Raf Simons and Hedi Slimane slimmed the suit, but Thom Browne really popularized a short-jacket, short-trouser look. And you still see that short trouser thing going on today, especially in casualwear.

Like with everything in fashion, the TB look cycled from what's new to what's current to what's old. Guys who are into CM were never going to like the look, but there was a moment when the TB silhouette looked really interesting. I mean, he won a CFDA award for it and even got a Brooks Brothers subline.

James Laver wrote about fashion cycles in 1945. It's mostly about womenswear, but you can see the same, general cycle happen in men's clothing. This is Lavar's cycle for how a garment is seen over time.

10 years before its time: indecent
5 years before its time: shameless
1 year before its time: daring
‘Current Fashion’: smart
1 year after its time: dowdy
10 years after its time: hideous
20 years after its time: ridiculous
30 years after its time: amusing
50 years after its time: quaint
70 years after its time: charming
100 years after its time: romantic
150 years after its time: beautiful

CM has its own trends. Cutaway collars, double monks, Neapolitan tailoring, spalla camicia, open quarters, etc. They move at a much slower pace, but a lot of the stuff that's considered canonically classic were just trends during their heyday (e.g. the Mod look). It's just that we're so far out from those trends that now we consider them charming, romantic, and beautiful.

Anyway, I think the TB look is mostly bad now because it's over its prime.

Great points Derek and appreciate hearing more background about the history of TB's arrival on the scene, as well as the Lavar cycle outline. Definitely makes sense. I was writing my above post in response to Fok's reply, while you were writing yours, so just read this. I think my points about the state of popular aesthetic gravitation towards the caricature holds water and can probably be tied into the Lavar cycle with a bit more parsing out of the social psych/behavioral underpinnings.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Thanks Fok. I guess that fits right in with what seems to be a social wave right now in the popularity of caricature on the one hand, and the authenticity (some call it traditional) backlash on the other. The TB suit styling, at least the way you describe it, to me is really indicative of a rise in a very twisted, artificial sense of beauty and aesthetics in the mainstream - think of the trend to get plastic surgery to make oneself look more like your Snapchat filter images. And cosplay seems like another good example of this. On the other hand, the resurgence of interest in bespoke, in the hand-crafted, in what is perceived as (or actually is) more "authentic".

As a recent example of this contrast in the mainstream fashion world, I have to think about last weekend's RL 50th Anniversary show in Central Park. 50 years later and RL is still directing tasteful, modern takes on the core of the house style, with styling that were more or less honest representations of the influences behind the "dream" being portrayed.
Great points Derek and appreciate hearing more background about the history of TB's arrival on the scene, as well as the Lavar cycle outline. Definitely makes sense. I was writing my above post in response to Fok's reply, while you were writing yours, so just read this. I think my points about the state of popular aesthetic gravitation towards the caricature holds water and can probably be tied into the Lavar cycle with a bit more parsing out of the social psych/behavioral underpinnings.
A lot of what you consider to be extreme is just the most forward facing part of the market. And that part of the market's aesthetic then just gets toned down for mass consumption. Raf Simons and Hedi Slimane's boyish silhouettes are what kicked off the slim fit trend. And even Savile Row tailors right now are making slimmer suits than they did 30 years ago.

Similarly, Raf (again) and Demna's gigantic, oversized silhouettes are swinging things towards the other direction.

This stuff still affects classic tailoring. But once you leave tailoring, these trends are inescapable unless you only wear super basic things (e.g. Levi's 501s and a Hanes t-shirt). Even Brooks Brothers, the most vanilla of casualwear brands, has slimmer silhouettes now because of what happened on the runway. And in ten or twenty years time, mainstream stores will fill out again, silhouette wise, because of what's happening today with Balenciaga.

The whole Hawaiian shirt trend in classic tailoring right now goes back to Saint Laurent's runway shows a few years ago. I don't think any of this stuff exists in a vacuum. It's more like communities that are situated at different points in the fashion cycle.
 

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