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Concordia

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Emiko is seemingly still making shoes and lives in London. Apparently Daniel Wegan has left G&G, but I don't know if he's going independent. Nicholas is obviously available and travels to the US. If I were trying to get a pair of bespoke shoes in London, I'd just use one of them.
Emiko left Foster's? Not that she ever handled my stuff, necessarily, but I got the impression she was one of the great craftspersons there.
 

dieworkwear

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Emiko left Foster's? Not that she ever handled my stuff, necessarily, but I got the impression she was one of the great craftspersons there.

She left Foster back in April or so, I believe. Simon Bolzoni is now the lastmaker there.
 

Concordia

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Didn't know she was the lastmaker.

Anyway, I have lasts that were allegedly made under Terry Moore's supervision-- when he was in the process of retiring. The first pair didn't really fit at all and got remade, but were quite elegant-looking. Anything from here will have some DNA from that effort, even after any future tweaks I decide to ask for. The whole thing was aesthetically successful even if it still doesn't fit as well as the Cleverly last made for me over 20 years ago.
 

dtwb

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Good lord, that's hilarious. What are the chances?

My story rivals that of Homer's Odyssey. It may even rival the best of Foo stories. I'm currently waiting for a refund. I sent back the first pair of shoes, abandoned the remake, and am now currently waiting to get my money back. Hopefully that will come through and I can be just done with the company.

A long time ago, I asked a friend for advice on where I should turn for my first pair of bespoke shoes. He's used every major West End firm, along with some smaller companies. Regarding Clev, he said that every order came to him with some small issue, but he found the company is willing to either do a remake or offer the shoes at a discount.

A quick point: why a customer should have to check over a company's work, I have no idea. You shouldn't have to ask people whether XYZ is a flaw. That's the whole point of hiring someone for a service, they should check over these things to make sure they're delivering you a best-in-class item.

But anyway, regarding that one person's experience, that mirrors mine. My shoes were screwed up in a number of ways. I brought up the issue to George Senior, who offered to sell me the pigged shoes at a significant discount (basically so he could recoup his cost) and then use my deposit for a new order. I foolishly took the offer. But then other issues arose with the service, so I've returned the first pair of shoes and abandoned the remake. I'm now waiting for a refund.

The initial pair of pigged shoes just ended up sitting next to my shoes from Edward Green and Nicholas Templeman. I found that I just never picked them up. Why would you when you have other good options? There are hundreds of lasts on the ready to wear market, so unless you're an unusual fit, it's not that hard to find a pair of shoes that'll cover your feet. In my limited experience so far with bespoke shoes, I've found that the main value in bespoke footwear is that you get to wear something that brings you a lot of joy -- they make you happy when you put them on. But when the shoes have all these defects, what's the point? Even Allen Edmonds seconds don't come like this.

Anyway, my guess is that, if you bring it up, they'll happily either offer you a discount or a remake. If you take the discount, and if you're anything like me, you'll still feel let down by the experience and product. And if your experience moving forward is anything like mine, the remake will have other issues. I don't know what's the best course of action.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Searching over this forum, several other sobering Cleverley stories. If only I'd known!
Yes, quality control shouldn't be the purview of the customer. All their talk of strict in-house examination would seem to be fluff (I also enquired about an unusually curved sole, which make the shoes rock significantly - rolled ankled territory. Was told this is a feature of hand-made shoes and would flatten out, bringing the vamp down to my foot. Hmm... certainly not something that seems to feature on shoes from Atienza, Bemer, Wegan, Templeman, et al.)
I hope your refund comes through swiftly. I may go the same path, and make an appointment with Nicholas Templeman when I'm next in London.
 

dieworkwear

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Thank you for sharing your experience. Searching over this forum, several other sobering Cleverley stories. If only I'd known!
Yes, quality control shouldn't be the purview of the customer. All their talk of strict in-house examination would seem to be fluff (I also enquired about an unusually curved sole, which make the shoes rock significantly - rolled ankled territory. Was told this is a feature of hand-made shoes and would flatten out, bringing the vamp down to my foot. Hmm... certainly not something that seems to feature on shoes from Atienza, Bemer, Wegan, Templeman, et al.)
I hope your refund comes through swiftly. I may go the same path, and make an appointment with Nicholas Templeman when I'm next in London.

Kirby explains the rocking back and forth here:





To me, this defies logic. Apparently, there is something called a twisted last (if you search this thread, you can find the discussion). But the rocking back and forth, to me, seems like a making issue, not a lastmaking issue. You can imagine creating a twisted last -- meaning, a last that's actually twisted -- but still having soles that sit flush with the ground. I also don't understand why you would want back seams that angle outward, like this: \ /

Imagine if this were on a suit jacket, where the center back seam angled outward.

To me, the angled seams just show the shoes were carelessly made. And the rocking back and forth is a defect.

As you noted, no other bespoke shoemaker does this. It's obviously not present in any factory-made ready-to-wear. No orthopedic company does this. No sneaker company does this. Why would anyone want shoes that rock back and forth? The heels on my shoes didn't sit flush with the ground, much like you see in Kirby's video. But the forepart of the sole was also so curved, it may as well have been an extension of the sculpted waist.

When I received my first Templemans, I noticed the split toe seams were a little off-center. You can see them in the photo here. Notice the split toe seams sit a little further out from the center of the toe:


1281921



When I asked Nicholas about it, he explained that it's because the top of a foot isn't completely symmetrical, which means the facings aren't completely symmetrical. When you draw a line down from the facings to the split-toe seam, it's a straight line. That's why the toe seam isn't completely in the center of the toe.

That makes sense to me. I think there's something to be said about relying on a person's expertise. But the angled back seam and rocking back and forth defies any common sense or logic. It could be that you can twist a last to elongate the shape -- tbh, I have no idea -- but what does this have to do with angled back seams and off-kilter soles? It's crazy to me that this is being sold as a feature and not a bug.

If it's a feature, and not a bug, you'd also have to ask why are the two seams angled at slightly different angles.
 

dtwb

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When I first heard Kirby talk of the "twisted last" (in one of his early unboxing videos, I believe) it seemed a fascinating, passably-logical feature... but the more it is discussed, and the more it bleeds into the functionality (or lack thereof) of the shoes, the more it seems nonsense.
My shoes have the same issue yours had - the forepart of the sole not sitting flush, as if the bevel/fiddle of the waist had been extended almost to the toe.
Nicholas' reasoning seems perfectly sound. Incidentally, those split-toe derbies are really gorgeous. My compliments.
 

patrickBOOTH

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Don't Saint Crispins have a slightly twisted last? They don't rock back and forth, but images of their shoes from the back do show a slightly canted heel seat.
 

Manuel

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I'm truly surprised with what you are talking about......
 

j ingevaldsson

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Could it be them trying to accomodate too much demand? I never hear Italian bespoke makers ******* up to that extent, presumably because they have a smaller clientele.

Savile Row has grown sloppy too, despite their brand image.

I'd say Cleverley's problem with construction is mainly due to bad quality check, and the freelance makers have learned this so many of them just do a minimum cause they will get paid anyway (Lobb St James have similar problems, they also let way too much sloppy things through). Regarding fit issues, Cleverley are outsourcing a lot of the lastmaking to a famous lastmaking firm, who don't get much more information than just some basic measurements, quite difficult to make a good job then.

Any idea who’s over G&G’s bespoke program then if Daniel left?

Tony will be doing the lastmaking now. The people who worked inhouse as makers, like Kiichiro Ozeki (previously Hiro Yanagimachi), Luis Lampertsdorfer etc are still there and will do most of the making, though I guess they might need to start using outworkers again.

Well,as I understand it, Lobb on St. James has always been a strictly bespoke operation.Wasn't it the current Lobb who said "We have turned our backs on the machine"?

I wouldn't be surprised if Lobbs trained 1 out of 3 well known bespoke makers in the world.

The point is that they encourage, and pay pensions for, real, honest-to-god bespoke makers who have been doing it all their lives and who embody skills and knowledge passed down in an unbroken-line since the 19th century...and long long before that when you come down to it.

Any other Lobbs is really just Hermes in disguise and invariably oriented toward manufacturing, as opposed to 'making.' Profit always comes first and skilled craftsman who have been at it all their lives are not a particularly respected resource.

All the difference in the world...

IMO...

Haha 1/3 of the makers in the world, I don't know if it was a joke, but sure came out like that. I know a lot of people are stating that they've been at Lobb's St James, even if they just have made some repairs a couple of weeks, or similar. They sure have had a bunch of people, but maybe 1/300 of the bespoke makers in the world is a more realistic number.

Today, I would without a doubt say that John Lobb Paris has a better reputation then John Lobb St. James. The Paris in-house production is more solid with a much higher lowest level than St James, which (as I mention above) unfortunately is letting a lot of sloppy things out of there. I really hope they will get a hold of that and keep up the quality level better.
 

DWFII

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^Reading remediation required :crackup:...I said "well known" and I said "I wouldn't be surprised" (no statement or assertion of of fact).

?
 

j ingevaldsson

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^Reading remediation required :crackup:...I said "well known" and I said "I wouldn't be surprised" (no statement or assertion of of fact).

?

A bit tricky to know where to draw the line of "well known", but maybe 1/30 is more correct then :)
 

DWFII

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You may be right. Being 73 years old, semi-retired, and an ocean away I have a much harder keeping track.

But not to put too fine a point on it, the point was, my point was:

The point is that they encourage, and pay pensions for, real, honest-to-god bespoke makers who have been doing it all their lives and who embody skills and knowledge passed down in an unbroken-line since the 19th century...and long long before that when you come down to it.

...which, in my mind, at least, most nearly answers @thatshoeotaku 's question.

?
 
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j ingevaldsson

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You may be right. Being 73 years old, semi-retired, and an ocean away I have a much harder keeping track.

But not to put too fine a point on it, the point was, my point was:

...which, in my mind, at least, most nearly answers @thatshoeotaku 's question.

?

I'm not sure what you mean with that sentence, to be honest. I mean, JL St James don't have that many employees, a few more than Cleverley, sure, but most are outworkers (who sure don't get any pensions paid by Lobbs). And if you compare to JL Paris, their bespoke department is bigger, think they have about 12 people working with the bespoke shoemaking, then a few more doing administrative stuff. Those get a pension, and being in France, work quite short work weeks as well... And there's several more in JL Paris who have been there for a very long time than in the St James workshop.
 

Texasmade

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JLP has 15 people working on shoes in the workshop. I don’t think they plan on increasing or decreasing that number.
 

ixk

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Hermès would endure huge damage to its reputation if it started ******* up bespoke orders for saddles and what not. Seeing how they sell 10, 20k+ euro handbags by the thousands, keeping JLP Bespoke at a high level is peanuts to them.

On the other hand, JL-St James having to use gig economy contracts like Uber drivers for its 10-20 employees shows that they clearly don't have the same financial constraints as Hermès, or indeed LVMH which owns Berluti.

LVMH bought out the entire atelier of Anthony Delos just to keep the reputation of Berluti bespoke intact. Just like Chanel bought dozens of lace and embroidery ateliers to stay on top of haute couture.

Independently-owned companies like JL-St James might struggle to survive actually, and that's even discounting the fact that big groups bought all the tanneries and keep the top tier leather to themselves.
 

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