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dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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I'm catching up on the posts in this thread, hence the deviation from the ongoing orthopedic discussion...

Derek, if I understood you correctly, you are suggesting that it is best to work with a shoemaker who does everything himself, from measuring the client's feet, all the way through closing. But with the exception of shoemakers like @ntempleman and @DWFII (and perhaps @Manuel) who (I believe) indeed do most of the work themselves, I understood that most bespoke makers have different people involved in the various steps. That is, the person measuring your feet may make your last, but he will not necessarily be the person who creates the upper and does the lasting. Ditto for the handwelting. So, at the end, there could be a handful of artisans involved in the creation of your bespoke shoes.

Sorry, but I find the bespoke clothing analogy tenuous. With clothing, you have 3 (or more) fittings for a coat and it is possible for the tailor to make corrections along the way. The cloth and canvas have some give and the tailor is also able to shape lapels, etc. using pressure and steam. With shoes, if the last is slightly off, you will not know until a test shoe has been made and then corrections can be made to the last. Of course you could get a second test shoe to see if the modifications have properly addressed the issues with the original last, but even then, the final shoe can feel different from the test shoe, since the shoemaker will generally use a different grade of leather, there will be a leather sock, etc.

In my (limited) experience working with shoemakers (just 2 so far) time has been the most challenging factor. I mean, if a sleeve is too short of the waist is a bit too snug, you can tell your tailor and he can make an alteration, sometimes within the same day. But with shoemaking, the time between client comments to getting the modified article can be months or even more, leading to a very long feedback loop. Say you felt the instep was too tight with the test shoe and your shoemaker should loosen it. When you try on the next test shoe (or get the final shoes), your perception over time could have changed or the shoemaker did not modify it enough to make a difference. Either way the end effect is difficult to judge, since so much time has passed in between.

Going back to my original question regarding having a shoemaker work with a third party last, I can understand Nicholas' point (paraphrasing here) regarding the shoemaker blaming the last maker and the last maker blaming the shoemaker for any potential fit issues. But in my case, I would like to see first if having a last made by someone other than my shoemaker would give me the result I am after. I guess there is only one way to know. :)

No, I don't think you have to find someone who does everything from start to finish. Like with bespoke clothes, where you have someone who drafts a pattern and then people who make the garment, in shoemaking, as I understand it, you often have someone who does the last and the other people who do the making.


My points were:

1. It's useful to have the person in charge of your pattern/ last present at the fitting process.

2. Many companies try to separate out the measuring process from the pattern making/ last making because it's easier to find someone who can pull a length of tape across the body or foot. It's hard to find someone who can do the technical bits. Often times, particularly in tailoring, the cutter is an older man who doesn't like to travel. So the grail in many custom tailoring/ shoemaking operations is to have a trained salesperson who can do the measuring, and then have the technical person just focused on the technical bits.

But, in practice, this doesn't work out too well. Salespeople may be highly trained at fitting and measuring, but for whatever reason, garments often don't turn out well if the actual technical person behind your product isn't present at fittings. This leads me to believe that measuring isn't an exact science since it's can't be easily separated out or even automated through body scanners.

I only have experience with two shoemakers, Nicholas and Cleverly. My Clevs turned out terrible; my Templemans turned out great. This is along two dimensions, the fit and the make. Clevs were terrible in terms of fit despite something like three fittings. The make was also terrible. The Templemans were great all around, and I assume some of this is because the person making my last measured my foot and was present at fittings. The Clevs were like some other bespoke tailoring operations, where a salesperson is present at your fitting, takes measurements and jots down some notes. Then passes that info along to someone back home, who invariably doesn't really get it right because they're working off someone else's notes, not their own.
 

Manuel

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I didn't want to say it, but I was suspecting that orthotics are the pills pushed by the podiatrists.
I think you are wrong, maybe it is better for you to see something normal and ordinary for me, this can happen to anyone, tomorrow it can be you, your father, your mother, grandmother ... or your brother ..... someone from your family ... then the opinions change.
This is the real world championship that you have to win every day. I wonder if one day they knock on your door and tell you that they want you to make a shoe to walk well and avoid the pain, what would you do? I know the answer, they all say the same ................. ah! that's specialist work! I do not work those feet!
But who is the specialist? Is it an extraterrestrial? A God? or a shoemaker?
It's a topic that people avoid early, why? Really if you do not master all the craft you will be very limited to do and solve problems and you will always depend on others.

I could upload thousands, I have not upload the worst, I think with these you will understand, there is no pill or scam, they ask for help.

1194431
 
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Manuel

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I think they are enough ......

1194459
1194460
 
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Manuel

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We really don't need to see that many pictures of deformed feet. I think we all get the point after a couple of pictures.
It is true but some need more than others. The reality is hard ........ speaking and writing is easy .........but working......
 
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beargonefishing

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I think I'm starting to get a handle on the different types of deformed feet, but need more photos to fully grasp the subject. Another 30-40 should suffice.*

*JBFDWWBSM
 

Manuel

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I think I'm starting to get a handle on the different types of deformed feet, but need more photos to fully grasp the subject. Another 30-40 should suffice.*

*JBFDWWBSM
Ahahahahahahha, with 30 or 40 photos you would not see 1/3 of the pathologies that exist.
You can laugh as much as you want, but on any given day you can get up and your life changes completely and instead of smiling you cry and you will wonder why me? Why me? and you will not find an answer but you will have to continue living, that's life, you never know what you have in store.
Maybe you should change the name of this thread and call it something like:
THE BESPOKE SHOES THREAD only for perfect and beautiful feets.:blush:
 

dan'l

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@dieworkwear, thank you for the clarification. Still, I am not sure about the point with the cutter in the backroom. In most tailoring operations, I understood that the "salesman" was the guy working in the showroom, who greeted clients, measured them and took notes. This info was passed to the striker, who marked the cloth and then the cutter did the cutting. This so-called salesman was also the fitter, who was present at all fittings. I guess the "grail" you referred to are the few maestros who do it all (measure/strike/cut/fit)? Are there so many shoemakers who work in a similar manner and do it all? Even if that were the case, does it guarantee the best results?

I believe you went to Nicholas first and then Cleverly, right? Any particular reason you did that, when everything worked so well with Nicholas?

Perhaps you posted it before, but what exactly was your experience like with Cleverly? The salesperson you mentioned above had no experience with bespoke shoes? Was he just a glorified version of the typical salesman at Footlocker with a Brannock device?
 

Manuel

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Sorry, The answer to the question patrickBOOTH is that there are many and diverse causes, from diseases such as gout, diabetes, osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, poor blood circulation, accidents, medical errors, misdiagnosis ....... overweight .. ..there are many.
.I think I'm not missing the crux of what the discussion really is about simply I just gave a real answer and I am aware that it affects, you can see how there are colleagues who have a lot of problems with their insoles and their shoes and can not find an answer
You also read carefully dan't's post, is really what happens when the shoemaker has to derive jobs from other people because he does not master the trade and that is a huge problem for the client.
 
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DWFII

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Maybe you should change the name of this thread and call it something like:
THE BESPOKE SHOES THREAD only for perfect and beautiful feets.:blush:
I applaud you for the work you do.
tipofthehat.gif


For myself, I served my country and I pay taxes. I never set out to be a saviour of mankind or a medic or to take in stray dogs. I pursued shoe and bootmaking for the craft, for the beauty of leather and the elegance of form.

Whatever this thread is or whatever its name, when you come right down to it, the focus is shoes, not necessarily feet, not even perfect and beautiful feet.. And not medical problems or admittedly and all too tragic grotesqueries.
 

dieworkwear

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@dieworkwear, thank you for the clarification. Still, I am not sure about the point with the cutter in the backroom. In most tailoring operations, I understood that the "salesman" was the guy working in the showroom, who greeted clients, measured them and took notes. This info was passed to the striker, who marked the cloth and then the cutter did the cutting. This so-called salesman was also the fitter, who was present at all fittings. I guess the "grail" you referred to are the few maestros who do it all (measure/strike/cut/fit)? Are there so many shoemakers who work in a similar manner and do it all? Even if that were the case, does it guarantee the best results?

That's the case if you're working with a local firm, but for traveling firms, at least those who go through the US, it's not uncommon to see trunk shows where the person making your last or pattern isn't present at fittings. That's been the case for many of the trunk shows I've seen: Napoli Su Misura, Rubinacci, John Lobb (of London), Foster & Son, Cleverley, etc.

It's also true of almost every half-bespoke or MTM operation.

And no, the "grail" I'm talking about isn't finding a person who can make the garment from start to finish. From what I've seen, the problem inherent in every custom clothing business is the difficult of scaling. Your profits are tied directly to the number of items you can push out of the door, and because of the amount of skill and labor necessary, you're limited in production.

So, many businesses try to find a way to scale by having a salesperson measure, and a technical person far away do the technical work. This allows the technical person to not have to travel, but instead stay home and concentrate on technical work. An extreme of this example of J Hilburn, where they train hundreds of salespeople around the US to visit clients in their homes and offices. These people are trained to advise customers on styling and take orders, and they're trained to take measurements. They don't send the pattern cutter from the factory out to all these locations, as that would take too much work. So by having hundreds (maybe thousands) of salespeople scattered around the country, they can take more orders and have the technical people back at the factory adjust patterns.

My point is that, if measuring were really an easy, scientific thing, this model would work because you can train someone to just pull a measuring tape across a chest or foot. But it rarely works.


I believe you went to Nicholas first and then Cleverly, right? Any particular reason you did that, when everything worked so well with Nicholas?

Perhaps you posted it before, but what exactly was your experience like with Cleverly? The salesperson you mentioned above had no experience with bespoke shoes? Was he just a glorified version of the typical salesman at Footlocker with a Brannock device?

I tried Clev cause I wanted to try someone new for fun. Nothing against Nicholas.

The person who measured and fitted me was the older Glasgow. Supposedly John Canera did my last. I've never met Canera.
 

bdavro23

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That's the case if you're working with a local firm, but for traveling firms, at least those who go through the US, it's not uncommon to see trunk shows where the person making your last or pattern isn't present at fittings. That's been the case for many of the trunk shows I've seen: Napoli Su Misura, Rubinacci, John Lobb (of London), Foster & Son, Cleverley, etc.

It's also true of almost every half-bespoke or MTM operation.

And no, the "grail" I'm talking about isn't finding a person who can make the garment from start to finish. From what I've seen, the problem inherent in every custom clothing business is the difficult of scaling. Your profits are tied directly to the number of items you can push out of the door, and because of the amount of skill and labor necessary, you're limited in production.

So, many businesses try to find a way to scale by having a salesperson measure, and a technical person far away do the technical work. This allows the technical person to not have to travel, but instead stay home and concentrate on technical work. An extreme of this example of J Hilburn, where they train hundreds of salespeople around the US to visit clients in their homes and offices. These people are trained to advise customers on styling and take orders, and they're trained to take measurements. They don't send the pattern cutter from the factory out to all these locations, as that would take too much work. So by having hundreds (maybe thousands) of salespeople scattered around the country, they can take more orders and have the technical people back at the factory adjust patterns.

My point is that, if measuring were really an easy, scientific thing, this model would work because you can train someone to just pull a measuring tape across a chest or foot. But it rarely works.

Last year I started my own MTM company, and worked with a factory to produce base patterns. I use those patterns to fit clients and make adjustments based on the needs of the customer. For me, it works really well and I have largely been happy with the results. With that said, the entire operation is based around understanding the relationship between the fitting and the base pattern. If I dont understand what impact the changes I am making will have on the finished garment, then it will be a disaster.

This is also not a subject one can close the book on after a few tries and assume you know everything you need to know. I have seen a lot of fittings over the years but I am still learning. Last week I fit a friend of mine who is a giant of a man. I was seeing an error that needed correcting, but I didnt know how to correct it in his case and had to ask for help. The answer made perfect sense once it was shown to me, but I didnt have the perspective at the time to see it for myself.

What I do is a world away from Chris Despos, or DWF or Nick Templeman. I am not a craftsman and I am genuinely in awe of the things they create. But I think a lot of the same principles apply in terms of trying to achieve a specific outcome and understanding what steps need to be undertaken in order to arrive at that goal. Pulling a tape measure is easy (enough). Knowing what to do with the measurement is not.
 

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