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dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Yes to both questions.

I think if you've already paid your deposit and selected the style and leather, there's nothing you can do. It would be wrong to ask for a refund at this point because the company has already started on your project. So you're committed.

In my situation, I went through a process that involved five meetings -- four of them fittings -- and then received a terrible pair of shoes. It's the only time I've been genuinely upset about a commission, partly because the shoes were so terrible and partly because the service and process leading up to these shoes were also terrible. So I shot them an email firmly expressing my disappointment.

To their credit, Senior and his assistant emailed back fairly quickly and apologized. Senior asked me to come to a trunk show and to bring the shoes. I wrote back saying thank you, said that I would, and mentioned that I heard a certain maker was behind the making process of my shoes (this is just something I heard may have been the cause, but, obviously, don't know for sure). I asked Senior if my remake can be assigned to a different person. I figured, maybe my shoes just went down the wrong "assembly line," and that I could get a better pair if the right hands were on the project.

At the subsequent meeting, things started pleasantly enough, but then quickly devolved. Senior was very upset that I had heard this thing about this specific maker, demanded to know where I heard such a thing, and from there, the argument just spiraled. At the end, I just told him to forget about the remake -- the fitting shoes were already in the wrong style, amazingly -- and just issue me a refund.

I assume any serious push to "tip" the scales towards a favorable outcome may just result in an even worse situation. I don't mean to be flippant, but I don't know what else you can do but pray for a good outcome.

A friend of mine is a long time GC customer. He has ordered many shoes. He mentioned to me that GC shoes often come to him with some defect, but that he often gets a partial refund when he brings up those issues. I got a full refund and just returned my shoes. Hopefully, Shackletonian can resolve his issue. If he does, and your shoes don't turn out well, then perhaps you can also get some solution.
 

Voelx

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I think if you've already paid your deposit and selected the style and leather, there's nothing you can do. It would be wrong to ask for a refund at this point because the company has already started on your project. So you're committed.

In my situation, I went through a process that involved five meetings -- four of them fittings -- and then received a terrible pair of shoes. It's the only time I've been genuinely upset about a commission, partly because the shoes were so terrible and partly because the service and process leading up to these shoes were also terrible. So I shot them an email firmly expressing my disappointment.

To their credit, Senior and his assistant emailed back fairly quickly and apologized. Senior asked me to come to a trunk show and to bring the shoes. I wrote back saying thank you, said that I would, and mentioned that I heard a certain maker was behind the making process of my shoes (this is just something I heard may have been the cause, but, obviously, don't know for sure). I asked Senior if my remake can be assigned to a different person. I figured, maybe my shoes just went down the wrong "assembly line," and that I could get a better pair if the right hands were on the project.

At the subsequent meeting, things started pleasantly enough, but then quickly devolved. Senior was very upset that I had heard this thing about this specific maker, demanded to know where I heard such a thing, and from there, the argument just spiraled. At the end, I just told him to forget about the remake -- the fitting shoes were already in the wrong style, amazingly -- and just issue me a refund.

I assume any serious push to "tip" the scales towards a favorable outcome may just result in an even worse situation. I don't mean to be flippant, but I don't know what else you can do but pray for a good outcome.

A friend of mine is a long time GC customer. He has ordered many shoes. He mentioned to me that GC shoes often come to him with some defect, but that he often gets a partial refund when he brings up those issues. I got a full refund and just returned my shoes. Hopefully, Shackletonian can resolve his issue. If he does, and your shoes don't turn out well, then perhaps you can also get some solution.
Thanks very much for the candor. If you have any tips re what to expect at the second meeting, I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t mind sharing.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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Thanks very much for the candor. If you have any tips re what to expect at the second meeting, I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t mind sharing.

My fittings with GC and Templeman have been basically the same. The shoes come to you without a sole. Sometimes there's a rough heel to lift up the back, so you can get a sense of how these look (shoes look different when they're completely flat on the ground). You slip them on and tell the person how they feel.

I find that shoes feel a little different without a sole. They're softer. But I basically just answer their questions. Usually, they ask if there's any tightness anywhere. The person fitting you will squeeze your foot a little to see how the uppers fit. It's a fairly quick process. Sort of like bespoke tailoring, I suppose, where you try on a basted jacket and answer some simple questions (e.g., "how does the chest feet," "how do you like the length," etc).

I don't know if I have any tips for the second meeting because, in my experience, everything is so simple, quick, and natural. You just try on the shoes and say if they feel uncomfortable or loose anywhere. In my case with GC, I mentioned that the heel felt loose on the first fitting. Senior said he would take note of it and asked me to come back for a second fitting. This repeated for a total of four fittings, each time with me saying how the heel fits loose, and then being promised that it will be adjusted. When the shoes were finally delivered to me, the heels again fit loose and I could stick a whole finger down the back between my heel and the shoe. That's partly why I was upset, as it felt like I went into five meetings for no reason whatsoever, as nothing was changed. Felt like I wasted my time.
 

shackletonian

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Thanks very much for the candor. If you have any tips re what to expect at the second meeting, I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t mind sharing.

@dieworkwear has really excellent advice. Depending on the leather, I’d recommend that you make sure to see it. When I had my fitting for the alligator shoes, they had a film covering them so I didn’t see the flaws and wasn’t able to raise the issues at the time.

be clear in your expectations. If something needs an adjustment, be clear and ask how they intend to resolve it. Make sure that it is acceptable.

keep notes about what you say. They do. Also, if you can be precise in showing where you notice an issue, be as precise and clear as possible. I didn’t notice issues during my fittings; they came out more after the soles were added and the shoes finished. So, keep notes and keep track about it. Also, be careful in offering praise. That’s not to say to be rude or treat it in an adversarial way, but they are looking for any and all signs that something is acceptable or not to adjust or keep you satisfied.
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
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I will say, from my interactions with them and the earlier chat log with Junior (posted in this thread by another member), my impression is that they have a disdain for a certain kind of internet customer. I think they prefer to sell to big wigs, gentlemen club members, CEOs, famous actors, and the like. I think they see internet enthusiasts as being small fries who are too picky. When I raised my issue with Senior and Junior, both of them pressed me on where I heard this info, how I got to know certain things, etc. The earlier chat log posted by another member here followed the same tone.

I assume if you start inspecting the leather too closely, they will also suspect you're an internet enthusiast, and thus treat you poorly.

I hear this often from people in the clothing trade, I think sometimes rightly so. They feel that there's a certain kind of person who's overly picky and has read a bunch of info online, then goes into a tailoring shop or shoemaking shop and causes trouble. I'm usually VERY sympathetic to these tradespeople, as I also think some internet guys are just unreasonable. But with GC, I think the work is so shoddy, it goes beyond complaining whether the stitches-per-inch count meets some number.

I don't know. It's ridiculous to have to tread like this with your shoemaker or tailor. Ideally, they should point out flaws you don't see and take it upon themselves to fix it. The whole point of hiring a professional is that they have the training, eye, and skills to spot these things. You should not have to pour over your shoes during fittings -- that's literally their job. But in this case, I suppose it can be a good idea to take notes and stress what you want changed.
 

JoeHend

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GC did respond fairly quickly and offered to re-make the shoe because the spacing is too great. I'm going to include all the photos of the loafers to highlight again where they need fixing. They also confirmed that the higher padding in the heel of the oxfords was to compensate for the heel. It's not a fix that makes me terribly happy because the extra padding is noticeable as I step in it.

In general, as I took photos in better light, I was more disappointed with the oxfords for a lot of finishing/leather issues. This is my first pair of alligator shoes, but as you can see in a few places, the leather arrived torn or in poor condition. Is this acceptable? I know that it's hard to get a good, wholecut alligator skin, so I don't want to have unreasonable expectations.

For the loafers, I used pins to highlight the real fit issue. The left shoe (in the heel) is simply too large. The right shoe better in the heel, but far too tight. The pin closer to the toe of the shoe is where the shoe has been short (and feels as though my toe is being compressed. The space between the two pins is where the shoe needs to be let out; it's too tight there.

Edited to include GC's response - and to note that I will be sending them back to be remade.
Dude, you got WAY TOO MUCH money to waste. Thousands and thousands for those hideous things.

Mother of God.
 

Punt

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Maybe a stupid remark, but if you can afford high-end bespoke, why not just go for the best available, instead of the big names? I understand some are not traveling, so harder to use, but Nicholas Templeman is traveling to USA, correct? And he is, correct me if I am wrong, one of the best in the industry. I am sure the best would be to use 4 different makers, with their best shapes, but my word, NT is showing only the best of the best, in both shape, fit (as far as you can see on pictures and finishing. Not my range, if only, but still.

Look, for the bigger audience, not being completely autistic like us, i can imagine the big brands are an easy go, but if you are so close to the best and you this is your passion, use people like NT and your are done for the rest of your life.
 

Punt

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ps. i didn't mention catellashoemaker, as I wasn't sure if he travels to US, but obviously he is on par with NT - and also some of the Japanese smaller houses, but again, you know what I mean, I hope.
 

j ingevaldsson

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Some solid dress shoe bespoke makers who regularly (when not in a global pandemic...) travel to/are accessible in the US, would be:
- John Lobb Paris
- Catella Shoemaker
- Gaziano & Girling
- Nicholas Templeman

Foster & Son used to be solid too, but I don't know exactly where they stand at the moment so therefore don't include them, but hope they'll be part of that group also in the future.
 
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shackletonian

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Dude, you got WAY TOO MUCH money to waste. Thousands and thousands for those hideous things.

Mother of God.
Your post is probably a reason that many people who have bad experiences don’t bother posting or writing about it. People already feel bad about the experience; they’re disappointed, and then they see other people bestow uninformed judgement against them and mocking them.
You don’t know that I saved for a year or two to get some shoes. That I take excellent care of my shoes so they last a long time. That I began having foot pain and sensitivity to shoes that don’t fit well. That my fiancée agreed to the shoes because she wanted me to get something really nice and that I’d wear to our wedding and thought this would be nicer and in place of a vacation or two.

the cost of them wound up being higher than I anticipated. I obviously didn’t know how they would turn out. I went to GC because I had some AC that were very nice and didn’t know much more and thought that, liking some of their RTW line, even if they didn’t produce it, they have decent enough QC to make sure that the shoes meet a level of acceptability.

I assure you, my own disappointment outstrips your joy in mockery. I posted here because I had hoped they would be wonderful shoes but found that there were laughably bad and that they could be mocked. Mockery of the buyer seems a poor game. Mock the shoes, sure. Mocking a user, that’s meanspirited

And, in case you’re wondering, I subsequently did start a pair elsewhere with another maker on the list. But that’s not the point here, is it?
 

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