The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[DWFII]

Like a dance to a song. If you ever see professional dancers (best of the best we are talking here) perform a particular piece. They look graceful. Perfectly in tune. Lines are executed flawlessly. Yet when you have another couple who "feel" the music, and perform that same song...There's just a difference. It takes on a life that the professional couple can not replicate. Lines are not perfect. Head isn't held up high like skilled dancers, but you just get a sense that other couple are breathing life into the performance. Perfectly imperfect with soul.

My wife and I danced for many years--ballroom, Latin, swing. And I've watched many many competitions (even competed at the most amateur level) and for me, and for most dancers, I suspect, those who don't have the technique just look sloppy or even foolish. As one of my teachers said, "broad moves just look dumb."

It's a different perspective. A different mind set. It's not a matter of relativism in any way, shape, or form.

What's more, you get a couple out on the floor who can't control themselves or their bodies and they're a danger to everyone else around them. Not pretty. Or conducive to the comfort of anyone else.

Come to think about it--sounds like contemporary society.

 

[deez shoes]

My wife and I danced for many years--ballroom, Latin, swing. And I've watched many many competitions (even competed at the most amateur level) and for me, and for most dancers, I suspect, those who don't have the technique just look sloppy or even foolish. As one of my teachers said, "broad moves just look dumb."

It's a different perspective. A different mind set. It's not a matter of relativism in any way, shape, or form.

What's more, you get a couple out on the floor who can't control themselves or their bodies and they're a danger to everyone else around them. Not pretty. Or conducive to the comfort of anyone else.

Come to think about it--sounds like contemporary society.

True, but there also exist those couples that come in with so much passion that the whole room can feel the energy. Also known as "swing" in Spanish.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

True, but there also exist those couples that come in with so much passion that the whole room can feel the energy. Also known as "swing" in Spanish.

This was the couple I had in mind. Definitely not sloppy or all over the place. Composed and in control of the floor and music just not extremely polished.

 

[brax]

Weird. I don't think of them as an iGent shoe at all, but a very classic American style. Granted, lots of classic styles get picked up by iGents. But shell cordovan tassel loafers have been sold at Brooks Brothers for decades.

Not a big fan of the BB Alden tassel but the BB Alden penny is an indispensable summer shoe. Unlined cordovan, of course.

 

[deez shoes]

Nice! I owned a pair of Alden shell loafers some time ago and remember really enjoying them. I wore them hard.

Though now I prefer a bit more "structure" with my loafers.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

My wife and I danced for many years--ballroom, Latin, swing. And I've watched many many competitions (even competed at the most amateur level) and for me, and for most dancers, I suspect, those who don't have the technique just look sloppy or even foolish. As one of my teachers said, "broad moves just look dumb."

It's a different perspective. A different mind set. It's not a matter of relativism in any way, shape, or form.

What's more, you get a couple out on the floor who can't control themselves or their bodies and they're a danger to everyone else around them. Not pretty. Or conducive to the comfort of anyone else.

Come to think about it--sounds like contemporary society.

It is just a different mindset, however assumptions are usually based on certain perspectives. It is educational to acknowledge and then, hopefully, appreciate those differences in perspective.

With shoes, so we can stay on target, there are definitely different perspectives as to how a shoe should look, or how it is constructed.

We can all agree, regardless of perspective, fit is king. If a shoemaker can not get this vital aspect of the trade perfected, it does not make any difference how skilled that individual is at making uppers or bottoms. How technically gifted that person is, or how polished the end result appears (polished in terms of refinement not shine).

That person would just be making a lifeless useless beautiful object only worth looking at in shoe competitions.

Wegan, as per someone's perspective ?, would be that deficient shoemaker. Fortunately, @j ingevaldsson has demonstrated that this is not the case.

Incidentally, Jesper those shoes better have fit you perfectly by the time they were finished, I don't want to be providing false statements over here ?.

Oh and I just checked, that restaurant I mentioned earlier is not A Michelin starred restaurant. It is a TWO starred Michelin restaurant. Talk about a lifeless but delicious prinsessanrata dessert ?.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

@BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes Haha, it’s called ”prinsesstårta”, so princess cake in English ?

I can understand the analogy. But IMO, “perfection” and “soul” definitely can be found in the same “objects”, it’s not one or the other, necessarily. To take a shoe example, we have Eiji Murata, who is very clinical and systematic with his whole approach to shoemaking, from measurements and fittings to his production process, and surely is very pedantic and perfectionist when it comes to the making. The shoes are art pieces, in its own self, IMO. Yet, they sure as hell got “soul” as well! And...*drumroll*...they fit excellent! (not just my view, testimony of many, as with Daniel).

 

[dieworkwear]

I had the same dessert a year earlier in Stockholm. Didn't look as pretty, wasn't as fluffy, wasn't as shiny, yet that dessert in Stockholm was perfection. ?

Did the pastry chef mention something about a twisted last?

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Did the pastry chef mention something about a twisted last?

No she did not ?.

The twisted last is definitely one of those mysteries which requires explanation. We are talking bullet point style explaining here.
Then again, I'm sure George Cleverly & Co believe that it leads to a better fit. I know my Bespoke shoes which have a standard "straight" last fit me just as well ??‍♂️. C'est la vie.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

@BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes Haha, it’s called ”prinsesstårta”, so princess cake in English ?

I can understand the analogy. But IMO, “perfection” and “soul” definitely can be found in the same “objects”, it’s not one or the other, necessarily. To take a shoe example, we have Eiji Murata, who is very clinical and systematic with his whole approach to shoemaking, from measurements and fittings to his production process, and surely is very pedantic and perfectionist when it comes to the making. The shoes are art pieces, in its own self, IMO. Yet, they sure as hell got “soul” as well! And...*drumroll*...they fit excellent! (not just my view, testimony of many, as with Daniel).

Perfection and soul definitely are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they typically go hand and hand. The concept of imperfectly perfect also isn't a static set of "rules". It is dynamic. That is its essence. That is how they (Italians) always attempt to describe "quella cosa". That thing.
Lots of hand motions are usually added for effect.

As most of us can attest to (who have purchased anything Italian), quella cosa is never on time. How can it be? You don't or can't put a time on it...much to my chagrin.

 

[bjhofkin]

Me coming to this thread for the first time in a few days and seeing the last 50 unread posts:

 

[thesartorialistbanker]

Bespoke John Lobb St James

 

[Manuel]

Stil doesn't answer anything from my previous post. And what do you mean with "the reasons why these problems arise"? Are you talking about a quite bad first test pair? Cause I'd have no problem if that was what was discussed, but you are the one who, from that, have stated among other things that "that image speaks for itself, he has no idea how the lasts are arranged,[...] it is very easy to distinguish who knows how to work from who does not know how to do it." and that “he doesn't have much idea of making custom shoes”.

If I put it like this: what, apart from your view of those few images of my first fitting pair, what do you have to back-up the statements that I have quoted above? In my previous posts I've been very clear with what I have to backup that they are false. So I'd be interested to know what you have?



But nothing of the above has anything to do with the topic under discussion.

Hi ingevaldsson, I am here again and sorry for delay.

In your first intervention Here...........you said: " looking at it that way. I’m not sure where the “20 shoes per year comes from”, maybe that’s what you do?"

You tried to belittle me by questioning my professionalism and production capacity, however, you did not bother to me and I politely replied with real numbers that would bring out the colors to some of the best and reputed craftsmen and not only in footwear for perfect feet, but on all kinds of feet without distinction and with a degree of fit that you would not believe.

In this your second speech you are challenging and you again question my arguments for making such a statement, however at least you ask the right question.

You make me work and lately I'm very lazy, I just want to play guitar with my group and have fun, even so let's see something.

Going back to the topic at hand, (shoe breakage) which is really interesting, I would like to ask you a few questions and for this I upload some images.


I have a measurement here of a regular client, Which lasts would you choose to make normal shoes for? The first or the second?

First...

Second....

Some more information that can help you choose ...

Wow! I'm really impressed, I can read your thoughts........the first? Noooo, you know that they are very small .......then........ the second ones? Noooooo I think you are seeing that they are too big and there are a few inches left ......... well, as we are not sure, Let's see how the shoes look on the client's feet.........You are not an artisan and yet you have not chosen one because you know that they do not fit well, you leave me speechless, I think you would be a good teacher.
Let's see the shoes....

Excuse the quality of these photographs because everything is done very quickly, I think we can see the fit and the client ...

I have put in evidence my reputation and my knowledge in the trade in front of the buyer knowing in advance that the shoes were not good even you without being a craftsman knew it ........... A consecrated professional can fail, that It is normal, I also fail, but in 98% of cases they are slight things to correct, such as: a small rubbing on a finger, excessively open laces ...... a heel that moves a little ..... ..things that require only a few touch-ups .... small adjustments but this ....... and as I said previously, the professional will always consult your measurements, notes, drawings, lasts and will measure the client again if you do He lacks to verify his notes and none will work with measures taken by other professionals, he can take it for granted.

Let's go back to the images where the professional appears cutting the shoes ...
Here.
what do you see?
I see a horrible adjustment and a preparation of lasts that do not correspond to the client's feet, in the comments of the article it says:
"Then it’s time for the most spectacular moment during the fitting, when Daniel cut up parts of the shoes. As I mentioned in the first post about G&G bespoke Daniel tries to gather as much information as he can on each order, and although not all is used in the production of each pair he learns of it and are slowly but surely getting a larger and broader knowledge base about as many different aspects as possible. To cut holes into the shoes are made to provide an improved image of how the space looks at selected parts. Because when you make bespoke shoes it’s basically about getting as little space as possible everywhere, without them becoming too tight and uncomfortable, to put things short. For example, Daniel noted when he cut up the heels that he could make the backs of the insoles slightly smaller, since there was some unnecessary space there, the heel can of course still be equal only that he moves up the back of the so-called feather edge, the lower edge of the last."

Here in the forum there are great professionals who have given their opinion, none of them would cut shoes to pieces to check the flaws and obtain information, why?
The answer is easy, mistakes are not found by looking inside the broken shoe, that image only shows insecurity and little self-confidence of the professional.
Those images can impact the customer's mind, he thinks: WOW! They attempt perfection in fit, however for most professionals it is only a way of minimizing the impact disaster can have on the test.

The answer to the errors is in your annotations, to the extent you took from the client, in the preparation or manufacture of the client last, in his intuition and experience of years and years ........and I am 100% sure that the fit of the majority, at least in the length of the shoe would not be so bad.

The images can also have another reading; A new generation of shoemakers using this new break technique based on new technologies and quantum physics, if this is so, don't worry, I will try to stay up to date on these new techniques by doing a classroom or distance course, it doesn't matter but I will learn it.
In relation to the preparation of the lasts, the pieces that are added to measure and correct are added aesthetically and sharing, when possible, so that the shoe does not look deformed, we are talking about normal feet.I will try to make a video with pieces and as they are reviewed, I never saw any teacher use the rasp to review the leather pieces ...... although that does not matter much, I think I am getting very outdated.

You speak of perfection, yes, perfection must be achieved in the execution of custom-made shoes or in anything I can do, at least from my professional point of view. Each client is unique and special and therefore their bespoke shoes must be treated as a work of art. above perfection there is nothing nothing, only personal satisfaction and pride that is the maximum, but below perfection there is only indifference and mediocrity.
Manuel.

 

[dieworkwear]

menswear in 2010:

menswear in 2020:

 

[ntempleman]

This is perhaps the most unenlightening argument on the internet right now