• STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

The Bespoke Shoes Thread

bdavro23

Distinguished Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
1,610
Reaction score
1,311
The stool is definitely (at least to the extent I can be certain without putting my ass on it...) curved.

1190031
 

Stefan88

Distinguished Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2012
Messages
1,112
Reaction score
1,552
I've only ever seen such toe springs on real shoes with certain bespoke houses from Florence. :-D
 

DapperAndy

Senior Member
Joined
May 1, 2018
Messages
114
Reaction score
453

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
12,911
Reaction score
28,685
^^^ Nothing particular with the toe spring on that Kiyo shoe, here is a picture on flat surface (more here):

Am I wrong for thinking that sole sits unusually high off the ground? At the forepart of the shoe? (And not talking about toe spring, but where the ball of the foot would sit)

1190497
 

DWFII

Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
9,381
Reaction score
4,283
This latest set of photos convinces me that there is nothing wrong with this shoe. Most lasts have a 'bottom radius'. That means that particularly around the periphery of the forepart (lateral and medial) the outsole will not touch the ground and may, depending on the lastmaker and the model, be significantly above ground--no harm no foul. Properly, most lasts (and the resulting shoes) will sit at the treadline and only touch ground in the center (or slightly medial) of the forepart.

Again, more toe spring for lower heels is theoretically and mechanically correct. Just because a lower toe spring is in vogue among consumers and 'designer' shoemakers, does not make it the necessary or preferred aesthetic.

Some heel spring is not a problem esp. once the last is pulled from the shoe. I personally do not like any heel spring and I personally do not think a slanted breast is best prectices but that's my sense of aesthetics coming to the fore.

Overall, I think the shoe is very well done.
 
Last edited:

j ingevaldsson

Distinguished Member
Affiliate Vendor
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
1,439
Reaction score
1,581
^^^ Yeah it's nothing wrong with that shoe in terms of balance, could be made a bit differently, but nothing is faulty.

A couple of other examples from the contest with similar more bevelled front part making it looks like it "floats";

Eiji Murata, 3rd place:



Atelier Zakaryan, 5th:


So Tsuchiya, 7th:



Yim Shoemaker, 12th:
 

dieworkwear

Mahatma Jawndi
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Apr 10, 2011
Messages
12,911
Reaction score
28,685
Can I ask if those shoes rock back and forth as a result?

I recently received a pair of Cleveleys and they were messed up in all sorts of ways -- the bottom of the sole was poorly finished, the uppers had what looked to be shoe polish drips, and there was a bit of space between the sole and the uppers. The two worst things, however, were: they were a bit too long, despite me going in three or four times for fittings (so many I've lost count). And the shoes rocked back and forth.

The rocking, to me, seemed like a result of two things: Clev's supposed twisted last (I still don't get why they do that) and a beveled waist that seemed to stretch into the forepart of the shoe. The middle dipped down so much, and the shoes along the outer edges sat pretty high off the ground.

Anyway, they were a mess and the order is currently being remade. There were so many things wrong with the shoes, I don't know if I can even tell what caused the rocking.

Kirby recently did a video of his Clevs and talked about the twisted last. I read this lessens the creasing. I think Kirby said it elongates the silhouette without adding volume. I don't know if I understand either of those reasons, but Clev seems to be the only shoemaker who does this. And it's not even consistent on every order, which makes you wonder if it's not a feature, but a bug, and lasts are just being pushed out of the workshop because of the number of orders.
 

DWFII

Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
9,381
Reaction score
4,283
I don't think a 'twisted' last has anything to do with creasing or silhouette. Toe spring and the 'bottom radius' are more likely to control both those aspects. I've spoken about this on several occasions, but would be glad to reiterate the reasons and the mechanics.

Depending on what is meant by 'twisted', the last is twisted to provide more support to the medial arch or twisted to be more anatomically correct with regard to way the toes lie vis the medial forepart of the last.

As far as rocking back and forth, the bottom radius would not have anything to do with that, either. Once the foot is in the shoe the outsole will flatten under the weight of the body the entire width of the plantar surface and touch ground all the way across....given that the last is the correct width for the foot and that the insole bears some relationship to the plantar surface of the foot. Similarly, the foot will drive the toe down during gait. Toe spring is incidental in that context. If it were otherwise toe plates would never have been invented.

Any shoe (and probably most) can have a pronounced curve to the bottom and after a days wear, the outsole will be worn/roughed up from the edge of one welt to the edge of the other.
 
Last edited:

bengal-stripe

Distinguished Member
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Mar 23, 2002
Messages
4,533
Reaction score
982
Kirby recently did a video of his Clevs and talked about the twisted last. I read this lessens the creasing. I think Kirby said it elongates the silhouette without adding volume. I don't know if I understand either of those reasons, but Clev seems to be the only shoemaker who does this.
In English shoe making, a 'twisted' last is the application of contrapposto into last making. Contrapposto in art (not only Michelangelo's 'David' but thousands of depictions of the human body in painting and sculpture) places the lines of shoulder and pelvis onto different planes, so they are twisted against each other. This introduces a dynamic and tension, but also ease into the human figure, which a straight plonked -down figure (like the proverbial 'sack of potatoes') does not have.

That same applies to the twisted last. The lines of joint and heel are twisted against each other: the joint line slopes down towards the inside, which raises the outside while the heel line slopes down to the outside. With the difference being some 2 or 3 mm, I cannot see how that can have a major effect on the overall shoe, let alone have the beneficial effects Kirby describes. I've just checked one of my lasts and I wouldn't call it twisted as both, joint- and heel-line both slope down equally towards the inside. It is quite possible that an experienced last maker might make customer-based decisions whether to introduce a twist or leave it out.

I have problems to understand your 'rocking' of the shoe, I can't even work out whether the rocking goes from left to right or front to back. But rocking on the table is one thing, rocking with your weight inside the shoe (getting sea-sick from walking) is another thing.

Anyhow, Cleverley are going to remake the shoes and hopefully all the problems will be sorted out in due course.
 

DWFII

Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
9,381
Reaction score
4,283
That same applies to the twisted last. The lines of joint and heel are twisted against each other: the joint line slopes down towards the inside, which raises the outside while the heel line slopes down to the outside.
That's what I meant when I talked about "the last is twisted to provide more support to the medial arch ". I have model 1930's West End lasts like that in both my size and that of my wife. The plane of the heel seat is twisted several degrees in opposition to the plane of the forepart, with the plane of the heel seat being higher on the medial side.

I have made shoes for both myself (several pair) and my wife on this 'twisted' last. Neither one of us like the 'feel'. I still wear some of those shoes--they haven't ruined my feet but I never saw any benefit either.

That said, my Master shoemaker friend from Colonial Williamsburg (original source for the model) swears by them
 
Last edited:

ecwy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
319
Reaction score
422
Can I ask if those shoes rock back and forth as a result?

I recently received a pair of Cleveleys and they were messed up in all sorts of ways -- the bottom of the sole was poorly finished, the uppers had what looked to be shoe polish drips, and there was a bit of space between the sole and the uppers. The two worst things, however, were: they were a bit too long, despite me going in three or four times for fittings (so many I've lost count). And the shoes rocked back and forth.

The rocking, to me, seemed like a result of two things: Clev's supposed twisted last (I still don't get why they do that) and a beveled waist that seemed to stretch into the forepart of the shoe. The middle dipped down so much, and the shoes along the outer edges sat pretty high off the ground.

Anyway, they were a mess and the order is currently being remade. There were so many things wrong with the shoes, I don't know if I can even tell what caused the rocking.

Kirby recently did a video of his Clevs and talked about the twisted last. I read this lessens the creasing. I think Kirby said it elongates the silhouette without adding volume. I don't know if I understand either of those reasons, but Clev seems to be the only shoemaker who does this. And it's not even consistent on every order, which makes you wonder if it's not a feature, but a bug, and lasts are just being pushed out of the workshop because of the number of orders.
Didn't we have some discussion on the leather thread where you said something like consumers shouldn't need to research themselves to nitpick the quality and should trust the brand. Quality should be apparent or something to that extent.

Anyway, I have seen enough examples of Cleverley bespoke shoes that I would personally not ever consider them. The quality seems to vary a lot between pairs. Poor lasting, ripped uppers at sewing holes...

I had this "rocking" problem before with one side of a casual pair of GYW boots. It was because the heel was unbalanced in my case and the boot rocked forward - backward depending on where I rested my weight. Yours sounds like it rocks sideways though.
 

Featured Sponsor

What's your favorite type of loafer?

  • Tassel loafers

  • Penny loafers

  • Horsebit loafers

  • Kiltie loafers

  • I hate loafers


Results are only viewable after voting.

Related Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
421,255
Messages
9,058,297
Members
190,679
Latest member
Yummyboi

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by

Top