The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[Alan Bee]

Apologies, but this has to be the silliest comment I've ever seen.
How are you able to consider the fit from a picture with a crease?
That instep looks perfect for me.
@grc1 may or may not have a low volume foot, but you can't assess that from that one photograph.

@grc1, they look great

@Stefan88

How am I able to assess fit? Seriously?? It is like asking me how do I assess the sleeves on a coat are too short from a photo. Sir, I use my eyes!

Look at the photo again. The laces on an Oxford pair of shoes should form an elegant "V". Not too wide V and certainly not completely shut (as in the photo). A completely shut lace facings point to too much room in the instep. To support that primary diagnosis, have a look at the excessive creases on the vamp. Too much volume, hence the excess leather and creasing. OP it appears, has a thin foot and needs less room in the instep and vamp of the last.

Without resorting to responding in kind (and being rude) by calling you silly, I would ask you to use your eyes to judge the fit. Its very simple. I don't know the owner and have nothing to gain with undue critique.

Alan Bee

 

[Stefan88]

@Stefan88

How am I able to assess fit? Seriously?? It is like asking me how do I assess the sleeves on a coat are too short from a photo. Sir, I use my eyes!

Look at the photo again. The laces on an Oxford pair of shoes should form an elegant "V". Not too wide V and certainly not completely shut (as in the photo). A completely shut lace facings point to too much room in the instep. To support that primary diagnosis, have a look at the excessive creases on the vamp. Too much volume, hence the excess leather and creasing. OP it appears, has a thin foot and needs less room in the instep and vamp of the last.

Without resorting to responding in kind (and being rude) by calling you silly, I would ask you to use your eyes to judge the fit. Its very simple. I don't know the owner and have nothing to gain with undue critique.

Alan Bee

I'll assess your posts and check if you're just trolling, because right now you seem outright -.
Who taught you the instep needs to form a v? As far as l can assess, with my obviously better eyes, he had up to 0.5 cm at top. If that's tight enough, why would he need more. I'd even argue it's perfect that way.

Vamps crease. Doesn't necessarily mean the fit is off.

Edit: sensored myself

 

[Alan Bee]

I'll assess your posts and check if you're just trolling, because right now you seem outright stupid.
Who taught you the instep needs to form a v? As far as l can assess, with my obviously better eyes, he had up to 0.5 cm at top. If that's tight enough, why would he need more. I'd even argue it's perfect that way.

Vamps crease. Doesn't necessarily mean the fit is off.

@Stefan88

Surely, one can Marshall arguments without the need to resort to outright ad hominem attacks.

Happy to engage you in a civilized debate on footwear and shoe fit (with references) when you find your misplaced manners, Sir.

Alan Bee

 

[Alan Bee]

I recall a very astute and experienced member @DWFII who impressed me with his knowledge on shoes and craftsmanship. I'm sure both @Stefan88 and I could learn a thing or two from him.

I personally have suffered the hell that is choosing dress shoes due to my flat, narrow, thin heeled feet. When I see a shoe fit that looks exactly like what I see on my own feet everyday (without my orthotics), I know it. So @Stefan88 I speak from "very costly" experience when I claim unequivocally that those shoes don't fit and are too "full" in the in-step and vamp.

The main reason I commented (on the original post) is because this is an MTO commission. Its not unusual to see poor RTW shoe fits because well, they are RTW. But I expect, if not perfect, then a much better fit for MTO as I must assume a premium charge for this service.

So @Stefan88 before you start labeling people "Silly" and 'Stupid", perhaps you'd do well to learn how what a"proper shoe fit" is. I hope @DWFII reads this thread .......

Alan Bee

 

[ntempleman]

FWIW I wouldn’t be able to say with any confidence how that pair of shoes fit from just the picture, nothing stands out as “wrong” so if the OP says they’re comfortable and fit well I wouldn’t be inclined to disagree. There’s a bit of creasing on the vamp, but that’s what happens when shoes bend. Could you reduce the vamp and lessen the creasing? Possibly. Would that be more comfortable? Hard to say, that’s entirely subjective and you need honest feedback to assess that. The facings are close but not touching, which is correct - a little more width apart is ok but maybe by the end of the day his feet will swell and they’ll need to be loosened. Too many variables really

 

[DWFII]

I agree with @Alan Bee--the shoe is too loose over the instep.

The purpose of laces on a shoe is to tighten the fit such that the foot is held firmly back into the heel stiffener and to enclose the foot snugly so that there is no looseness.

During even a relatively short amount of use, the facings will "stretch" a little. And what once was a wide gap will become narrower. And if the facings initially close up such that there is no gap, both the function of the laces and the fit of the shoe will be compromised. The shoe cannot get tighter. The laces cannot tighten down anymore and yet the stretching continues...aggravated by the movement of the foot within the shoe. Which invariably makes the shoe even looser--ourorboros.

The pipes and wrinkles in the forepart may be a bit excessive but it is hard to tell with the foot in a relaxed position. Some feet more or less collapse upon themselves when they are not bearing weight. And the leather could also have something to do with it.

But that said, while pipes and wrinkles (creases, IOW) are normal, as a maker I would be looking for a mistake in fit if a pair of my shoes exhibited that degree of creasing. A well fit shoe will be form-fitting--snug, with no "air pockets" over or around any part of the foot except the toe stiffener area. Ideally, when a thumb is drawn across the surface of a weight bearing shoe, it should not be possible to chase pipes ahead of the thumb.

 

[DWFII]

FWIW, here is a quick photo of a pair of my personal "work" shoes. I just now threw them on. For the purposes of taking this photo, I have my foot up on a radiator so they are not weight bearing. I didn't even lace them up.

Now, these are one of the first pair of shoes I ever made when I decided to branch out from making pull-on boots...15+ years ago. The leather was not prime--just something I had laying around. But as is evident in the photo, the fit is pretty good esp. in the forepart. The shoe is heavily creased both from working in them and because of the quality of the leather. But even with the foot being in a somewhat relaxed position, the creases are flat--there is no excess leather there.

 

[Stefan88]

FWIW I wouldn’t be able to say with any confidence how that pair of shoes fit from just the picture, nothing stands out as “wrong” so if the OP says they’re comfortable and fit well I wouldn’t be inclined to disagree. There’s a bit of creasing on the vamp, but that’s what happens when shoes bend. Could you reduce the vamp and lessen the creasing? Possibly. Would that be more comfortable? Hard to say, that’s entirely subjective and you need honest feedback to assess that. The facings are close but not touching, which is correct - a little more width apart is ok but maybe by the end of the day his feet will swell and they’ll need to be loosened. Too many variables really

This was my point exactly.

I apologise for the rude and heated comment, @Alan Bee , but I genuinely think you cannot assess a fit in such a negative manner based on a picture.
I agree there's creasing at the vamp, but there can be several causes to that.

 

[DWFII]

This was my point exactly.

I apologise for the rude and heated comment, @Alan Bee , but I genuinely think you cannot assess a fit in such a negative manner based on a picture.
I agree there's creasing at the vamp, but there can be several causes to that.

I think you're right. A photo is never even close to informative enough to assess fit. It takes educated hands, really.

And fit is subjective. I look at the photo and I see unnecessary looseness (maybe that's a holdover from my years of making boots where there are no laces to adjust), And @ntempleman, a maker I respect, doesn't see quite the same thing. It's subjective.

That said, I would observe that it is perfectly possible to have a tight .5cm gap at the top of the facing and be unfortunately loose further down the instep.

 

[Alan Bee]

I agree with @Alan Bee--the shoe is too loose over the instep.

The purpose of laces on a shoe is to tighten the fit such that the foot is held firmly back into the heel stiffener and to enclose the foot snugly so that there is no looseness.

During even a relatively short amount of use, the facings will "stretch" a little. And what once was a wide gap will become narrower. And if the facings initially close up such that there is no gap, both the function of the laces and the fit of the shoe will be compromised. The shoe cannot get tighter. The laces cannot tighten down anymore and yet the stretching continues...aggravated by the movement of the foot within the shoe. Which invariably makes the shoe even looser--ourorboros.

The pipes and wrinkles in the forepart may be a bit excessive but it is hard to tell with the foot in a relaxed position. Some feet more or less collapse upon themselves when they are not bearing weight. And the leather could also have something to do with it.

But that said, while pipes and wrinkles (creases, IOW) are normal, as a maker I would be looking for a mistake in fit if a pair of my shoes exhibited that degree of creasing. A well fit shoe will be form-fitting--snug, with no "air pockets" over or around any part of the foot except the toe stiffener area. Ideally, when a thumb is drawn across the surface of a weight bearing shoe, it should not be possible to chase pipes ahead of the thumb.

@DWFII You haven’t disappointed.

Thank you for this very comprehensive response. I understand and agree with your entire diagnosis even if I lack the technical vocabulary to advance the same argument.

Thank you again @DWFII

Alan Bee

 

[Alan Bee]

FWIW I wouldn’t be able to say with any confidence how that pair of shoes fit from just the picture, nothing stands out as “wrong” so if the OP says they’re comfortable and fit well I wouldn’t be inclined to disagree. There’s a bit of creasing on the vamp, but that’s what happens when shoes bend. Could you reduce the vamp and lessen the creasing? Possibly. Would that be more comfortable? Hard to say, that’s entirely subjective and you need honest feedback to assess that. The facings are close but not touching, which is correct - a little more width apart is ok but maybe by the end of the day his feet will swell and they’ll need to be loosened. Too many variables really

@ntempleman

Sir, your reputation preceedes you much as @DWFII’s

I am hardly qualified to impeach your very informed and highly educated opinion. But I’m inclined to go with @DWFII on this one due to my own personal experience(s).

As I said earlier - when I see a shoe fit like that reminds me of mine and the “small fortune” I’ve spent on shoes which I eventually had to give away due to poor fit and resulting pain - I know it right away.

I insist that, were the shoes RTW, I wouldn’t bat an eye lid. But for MTO’s which are not quite bespoke but still somewhat personalized, the resulting fit should be far better than this. This is just unacceptable and poor for an MTO in my humble opinion.

That last statement underlines my entire argument.

Alan Bee

 

[Alan Bee]

This was my point exactly.

I apologise for the rude and heated comment, @Alan Bee , but I genuinely think you cannot assess a fit in such a negative manner based on a picture.
I agree there's creasing at the vamp, but there can be several causes to that.

@Stefan88

No worries my man. We are all here to learn and we are receiving an education even now by @DWFII and @ntempleman

You and I both will be far better for it so apologies accepted good Sir and thank you for forcing the debate.

Alan Bee

 

[DWFII]

@DWFII You haven’t disappointed.

Thank you for this very comprehensive response. I understand and agree with your entire diagnosis even if I lack the technical vocabulary to advance the same argument.

Thank you again @DWFII

Alan Bee

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

 

[discostu004]

Patrick Frei's workshop at Freiburg.

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WOW, that looks like we just transported back in time to 1910! very cool

 

[discostu004]

Received a new bespoke pair from Gaziano & Girling this week. Some pics below (more here on my blog):

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WELL DONE! those are fantastic, beautiful toe!