The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[dieworkwear]

Wondering if I can get people's opinion on something.

I'm getting a pair split toes from Nicholas Templeman. The design is inspired by JM Weston's Chasse, but slightly toned down. No Norwegian welt; double soles instead of triple; not the overly exaggerated rounded toe shape. The idea is to get something a bit more casual and rustic than the other split toes I own, but not so over-the-top as the Chasse.

At the moment, Nicholas is having problems with the apron. I'd like something different from the split toe I got from him on my first order. They look like this.

Those are made with a split-raised apron. I'm hoping to get something like this for the second commission (just the apron part)

The problem is that the leather I've chosen isn't stout enough to hold up to the stitch. As far as I know, this is basically a variation of the split and lift technique used on "pie crust aprons." But when Nicholas pushes the needle into the leather, it breaks. Apparently it's hitting something like the short fibers on the leather. Not long enough to really hold the thread.

So, Nicholas has proposed three solutions. I'm wondering if I can get people's feedback on each.

1. Boot Leather: Apparently, a Japanese shoemaker tells Nicholas that he's solved this same problem by just using a thicker 1.6 - 2mm boot leather. Which is thicker than the ~1.2mm leather typically used for derbies like this. With a thicker leather, you can basically put in this stitch without it breaking. The downside is that it'll be harder to break in and make the shoe look chunkier. I don't know what that necessarily means, however. I like and wear boots, but I don't know how a boot leather would look on a derby. I also recognize that a "rustic split toe but not toooo rustic" is an absurdly fuzzy and subjective line. I definitely want this to be a bit more rustic and casual than, say, Edward Green's Dovers. I just don't want it to look like country gentleman cosplay.

2. Search for a Rustic Leather: The other solution is to get a rustic leather, something like Edward Green's Delpare. From Nicholas' email, I get the impression that the tannery he has in mind isn't very responsive. And we've already gone through two iterations on this order (first one didn't turn out right and Nicholas was nice enough to offer a remake. The above is the broken leather on the remake). I'm not trying to make the guy go broke over an order.

3. Do a Wholecut Derby: The other solution is to get creative with the apron. Nicholas suggests he could maybe imitate the stitch by doing a wholecut derby, where the stitch would end up forming a wider, flatter lake. When you have two pieces of leather, I assume you end up with that lip you see in my first order.

If we do a wholecut derby here, the facings would have to be made from separate pieces of leather and laid on top of the shoe. Here's an example, I think from Lobb

You can see how the facings are stitched with two seams. This differs from the regular derby construction on Chasse:

Fundamentally, it seems to me that solutions 1 and 3 would make the shoes look slightly different, but in ways I can't easily conceptualize. The first could be very chunky; the second overly busy. It's hard for me to conceptualize what this really would mean in the end. I do want a chunky split toe (that's the point of this project); just not too chunky. I also want a slightly busier split toe (again, part of the point of this project); just not busy in an ugly way. Solution 2 is basically to wait things out, I think, and see if he can score a different piece of leather. I suppose that can work, but I don't want to waste the guy's time and money. Who knows what that end leather would look like anyway -- maybe we don't even end up solving the problem.

So, curious what other people here think? Suggestions? Thoughts?

cc'ing @jerrybrowne, @DWFII, and @bengal-stripe cause they have good thoughts on stuff like this, although I welcome comments from anyone.

 

[jerrybrowne]

Wondering if I can get people's opinion on something.

I'm getting a pair split toes from Nicholas Templeman. The design is inspired by JM Weston's Chasse, but slightly toned down. No Norwegian welt; double soles instead of triple; not the overly exaggerated rounded toe shape. The idea is to get something a bit more casual and rustic than the other split toes I own, but not so over-the-top as the Chasse.

At the moment, Nicholas is having problems with the apron. I'd like something different from the split toe I got from him on my first order. They look like this.

View attachment 850419

View attachment 850433

Those are made with a split-raised apron. I'm hoping to get something like this for the second commission (just the apron part)

View attachment 850421

The problem is that the leather I've chosen isn't stout enough to hold up to the stitch. As far as I know, this is basically a variation of the split and lift technique used on "pie crust aprons." But when Nicholas pushes the needle into the leather, it breaks. Apparently it's hitting something like the short fibers on the leather. Not long enough to really hold the thread.

View attachment 850424

So, Nicholas has proposed three solutions. I'm wondering if I can get people's feedback on each.

1. Boot Leather: Apparently, a Japanese shoemaker tells Nicholas that he's solved this same problem by just using a thicker 1.6 - 2mm boot leather. Which is thicker than the ~1.2mm leather typically used for derbies like this. With a thicker leather, you can basically put in this stitch without it breaking. The downside is that it'll be harder to break in and make the shoe look chunkier. I don't know what that necessarily means, however. I like and wear boots, but I don't know how a boot leather would look on a derby. I also recognize that a "rustic split toe but not toooo rustic" is an absurdly fuzzy and subjective line. I definitely want this to be a bit more rustic and casual than, say, Edward Green's Dovers. I just don't want it to look like country gentleman cosplay.

2. Search for a Rustic Leather: The other solution is to get a rustic leather, something like Edward Green's Delpare. From Nicholas' email, I get the impression that the tannery he has in mind isn't very responsive. And we've already gone through two iterations on this order (first one didn't turn out right and Nicholas was nice enough to offer a remake. The above is the broken leather on the remake). I'm not trying to make the guy go broke over an order.

3. Do a Wholecut Derby: The other solution is to get creative with the apron. Nicholas suggests he could maybe imitate the stitch by doing a wholecut derby, where the stitch would end up forming a wider, flatter lake. When you have two pieces of leather, I assume you end up with that lip you see in my first order.

If we do a wholecut derby here, the facings would have to be made from separate pieces of leather and laid on top of the shoe. Here's an example, I think from Lobb

View attachment 850428

You can see how the facings are stitched with two seams. This differs from the regular derby construction on Chasse:

View attachment 850429

Fundamentally, it seems to me that solutions 1 and 3 would make the shoes look slightly different, but in ways I can't easily conceptualize. The first could be very chunky; the second overly busy. It's hard for me to conceptualize what this really would mean in the end. I do want a chunky split toe (that's the point of this project); just not too chunky. I also want a slightly busier split toe (again, part of the point of this project); just not busy in an ugly way. Solution 2 is basically to wait things out, I think, and see if he can score a different piece of leather. I suppose that can work, but I don't want to waste the guy's time and money. Who knows what that end leather would look like anyway -- maybe we don't even end up solving the problem.

So, curious what other people here think? Suggestions? Thoughts?

cc'ing @jerrybrowne, @DWFII, and @bengal-stripe cause they have good thoughts on stuff like this, although I welcome comments from anyone.

What do they use on the westons? Personally, I'd go with the boot leather and wear the hell out of them.

I think that would make a nice shoe that you could wear multiple times a week. Your go-to shoes that you spend lots of leisurely time with.

 

[dieworkwear]

What do they use on the westons? Personally, I'd go with the boot leather and wear the hell out of them.

I think that would make a nice shoe that you could wear multiple times a week. Your go-to shoes that you spend lots of leisurely time with.

Yea, that's one of the things I don't quite understand. Why is it possible on the Westons? Maybe it's because they own their own tannery (at least, that's the marketing line). I assume they can toy with the thickness and tanning process to make the stitch work. Nicholas basically has to work with whatever he can find on the market.

I'm leaning towards boot leather as well. Maybe we can just use this as an opportunity to make the last a bit more rounded and casual, so it's not toooo hard to break in. I was hoping for this to be a reasonably casual shoe anyway. And I've worn boots in the past with no issues, so I assume it shouldn't be too bad in derby form.

 

[ericgereghty]

Boot leather seems the most likely to keep it in line with your desired outcome.

 

[jerrybrowne]

Yea, that's one of the things I don't quite understand. Why is it possible on the Westons? Maybe it's because they own their own tannery (at least, that's the marketing line). I assume they can toy with the thickness and tanning process to make the stitch work. Nicholas basically has to work with whatever he can find on the market.

I'm leaning towards boot leather as well. Maybe we can just use this as an opportunity to make the last a bit more rounded and casual, so it's not toooo hard to break in. I was hoping for this to be a reasonably casual shoe anyway. And I've worn boots in the past with no issues, so I assume it shouldn't be too bad in derby form.

I really doubt anyone would notice that you are using boot leather. You might not even notice.

Another possibility-do you have to use calfskin? Other leathers with better tensile properties that are not flashy and could work?

 

[ThinkDerm]

Here are a pair of pigskin cleverleys I had made many years ago. As Rolf mentioned, the pigskin on this pair is pretty stiff. I would not make another pair of shoes out of it.
View attachment 850036 View attachment 850037

Absolutely beautiful

 

[jerrybrowne]

Absolutely beautiful

Thanks!

 

[ThinkDerm]

Those westons are thicker leather than the 1.2 mm shoe leather. I'd say if you go boot leather 1.6 to 1.8 mm thick, you will be fine.

Other option is the EG Piccadilly stitch where the leather is scored and partially cut through to create the look you are going for. You will need a 1.6 mm leather for that as well.

1.2 mm is quite a thin super dress shoe leather, not really consistent with the shoe you described you wanted

 

[dieworkwear]

I really doubt anyone would notice that you are using boot leather. You might not even notice.

Another possibility-do you have to use calfskin? Other leathers with better tensile properties that are not flashy and could work?

That's a good idea regarding non-calf. I'll ask Nicholas.

Will probably send him a note Monday, but if anyone has suggestions in the meantime, let me know. Leaning towards boot leather at the moment.

 

[bengal-stripe]

The problem is that the leather I've chosen isn't stout enough to hold up to the stitch. As far as I know, this is basically a variation of the split and lift technique used on "pie crust aprons." But when Nicholas pushes the needle into the leather, it breaks. Apparently it's hitting something like the short fibers on the leather. Not long enough to really hold the thread.

Apparently that problem is not uncommon. I heard from my shoemaker that he has received apron-fronted uppers to do the bottom work; he starts lasting and the apron seam begins to rip. So he contacts the firm, they make a new upper (different leather, different stitch) and the problem is solved.

I cannot see a big difference in look or comfort between a leather that is 1.2 mm and one that is 1.6 mm. Most of the grained leathers come in 1.6 mm, and they are softer than a thinner boxcalf. Yes, that got something to do with the applied grain, be it embossed, milled or shrunk. As far as I can see, the apron-stitch on the Weston is not dissimilar to the 'split-raised seam' of your previous shoe; neither has the need for the needle to go through at half thickness of the leather. The two leather pieces that form the seam on the Weston are cut or skived to form an angle (in woodworking you would call it 'chamfered'). So when you push through the stitches, the edges will rise, but not expose the leather's core.

Just go for a slightly heavier leather, maybe a different stitch and "Bob's your uncle" (as they say in London).

 

[DWFII]

3 ounce (1.2mm) is perfectly fine for most men's shoes but the temper of the leather, the tannage, as well as the age of the animal when slaughtered all have a lot to do with the tensile strength. A 1mm kangaroo might be adequate for any kind of "skin stitching" but most modern calfskins are significantly less strong (at any weight) than calfskins of old.

I have done split and lift in both chrome and veg calf at 1.2 and 1.6 mm (4 ounce) respectively but I would much rather do it in the 1.6.Personally, I think that 1.6mm is just about the perfect weight for men's shoes

I am not sure what is being referred to as "boot leather". I've used a lot of French calf, that was 4ounce (1.6mm) and unequivocally dressy. Frankly, I doubt they would look clunky--that's more in the hands of the maker at this level than the weight of the leather. I suspect that you wouldn't even notice a difference...visually or in terms of weight on your feet.

A lot of it is...or can be...in the size of tools too. I use an extremely fine sewing awl to "skin stitch"--all vintage or small "cricket" awls. And of course using needles instead of bristles can be a high risk factor as well. Although again, at this level, that all probably goes without saying.

FWIW, I had an, ostensibly, very nice burgundly calfskin (purportedly French calf) that split around each hole when I was broguing it. Sometimes I think the "burnishing" or whatever they do to some calfskins, actually makes the grain more brittle. I suspect that particular burgundy French calf would have cracked out (in the creases) well before its time.

 

[dopey]

. . .

3. Do a Wholecut Derby: The other solution is to get creative with the apron. Nicholas suggests he could maybe imitate the stitch by doing a wholecut derby, where the stitch would end up forming a wider, flatter lake. When you have two pieces of leather, I assume you end up with that lip you see in my first order.

If we do a wholecut derby here, the facings would have to be made from separate pieces of leather and laid on top of the shoe. Here's an example, I think from Lobb

View attachment 850428

You can see how the facings are stitched with two seams. This differs from the regular derby construction on Chasse:

View attachment 850429
...

Option 3 is pretty much what I have on order, except that I am not then asking for an apron or faux stitching on it. Also it will have a double sole and norwegian welt/reverse welt (and skin stitched curved side seam). So a simple walking shoe. I once had a black pair from Grenson but gave them away (for a good reason that I can't remember anymore) but liked them very much. Bostonian and Alden always had a model like that and I am sure Alden still does.

Edit: Here is the Alden model, with a crepe sole:

 

[dieworkwear]

Apparently that problem is not uncommon. I heard from my shoemaker that he has received apron-fronted uppers to do the bottom work; he starts lasting and the apron seam begins to rip. So he contacts the firm, they make a new upper (different leather, different stitch) and the problem is solved.

I cannot see a big difference in look or comfort between a leather that is 1.2 mm and one that is 1.6 mm. Most of the grained leathers come in 1.6 mm, and they are softer than a thinner boxcalf. Yes, that got something to do with the applied grain, be it embossed, milled or shrunk. As far as I can see, the apron-stitch on the Weston is not dissimilar to the 'split-raised seam' of your previous shoe; neither has the need for the needle to go through at half thickness of the leather. The two leather pieces that form the seam on the Weston are cut or skived to form an angle (in woodworking you would call it 'chamfered'). So when you push through the stitches, the edges will rise, but not expose the leather's core.

Just go for a slightly heavier leather, maybe a different stitch and "Bob's your uncle" (as they say in London).

3 ounce (1.2mm) is perfectly fine for most men's shoes but the temper of the leather, the tannage, as well as the age of the animal when slaughtered all have a lot to do with the tensile strength. A 1mm kangaroo might be adequate for any kind of "skin stitching" but most modern calfskins are significantly less strong (at any weight) than calfskins of old.

I have done split and lift in both chrome and veg calf at 1.2 and 1.6 mm (4 ounce) respectively but I would much rather do it in the 1.6.Personally, I think that 1.6mm is just about the perfect weight for men's shoes

I am not sure what is being referred to as "boot leather". I've used a lot of French calf, that was 4ounce (1.6mm) and unequivocally dressy. Frankly, I doubt they would look clunky--that's more in the hands of the maker at this level than the weight of the leather. I suspect that you wouldn't even notice a difference...visually or in terms of weight on your feet.

A lot of it is...or can be...in the size of tools too. I use an extremely fine sewing awl to "skin stitch"--all vintage or small "cricket" awls. And of course using needles instead of bristles can be a high risk factor as well. Although again, at this level, that all probably goes without saying.

FWIW, I had an, ostensibly, very nice burgundly calfskin (purportedly French calf) that split around each hole when I was broguing it. Sometimes I think the "burnishing" or whatever they do to some calfskins, actually makes the grain more brittle. I suspect that particular burgundy French calf would have cracked out (in the creases) well before its time.

Thanks for the perspectives. I admit, I think the thicker 1.6mm leather solution would be easiest, although Nicholas prefers solution number three (the wholecut derby). Part of me thinks maybe I should be clear about what I hope the shoes will look like in the end and go with whatever he recommends.

I think this has been mentioned here before, but other reps at shoe companies have also told me they find modern leathers to be a bit more brittle compared to similar leathers a generation or two ago. Possibly because of how fast they grow these animals now.

Option 3 is pretty much what I have on order, except that I am not then asking for an apron or faux stitching on it. Also it will have a double sole and norwegian welt/reverse welt (and skin stitched curved side seam). So a simple walking shoe. I once had a black pair from Grenson but gave them away (for a good reason that I can't remember anymore) but liked them very much. Bostonian and Alden always had a model like that and I am sure Alden still does.

Edit: Here is the Alden model, with a crepe sole:

Huh, that Alden actually doesn't look as strange as I would have thought. I don't think I would have noticed how the facings are constructed if it were outside of this conversation.

 

[Ric Borella]

calzoleriariccardoborella

 

[Ric Borella]

calzoleriariccardoborella