The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[TimothyF]

Michael Symons was the sales associate I met with at their Savile Row shop and he told me the entire upper was hand stitched. He did show me an example of an extremely fine stitch that had to be done on machine but was only on an accent of a certain style of loafer.

I was speaking to him about their full bespoke but he was pushing me towards their semi-bespoke which also had a fully hand-stitched upper.

Color me skeptical. There's a difference between hand-operating a sewing machine and hand sewing with a needle. My hunch is on the former

 

[JohnMRobie]

Yeah pretty much nobody does closing by hand. Either @Hardtmuth is being taken for a ride or there is a miscommunication. My hunch is that it’s the latter.

The only hand stitch on the uppers is if the model has a split, apron or skin stitch.

 

[haggis]

I don't believe the entire uppers would be hand sewn. Typically that is reserved for samples and competition shoes

It's possible that G&G offer it as an add-on and if that is the case I'd love to know who on their team is doing the work, takes a lot of talent and patience

 

[Hardtmuth]

I was under the impression that most bespoke makers (in the UK and Japan at least) would machine stitch the uppers by default. They can probably do hand stitching on the uppers for an upcharge.

I thought the same. John Lobb explicitly told me "no" to hand stitching the uppers except where necessary.

 

[Hardtmuth]

Yeah pretty much nobody does closing by hand. Either @Hardtmuth is being taken for a ride or there is a miscommunication. My hunch is that it’s the latter.

The only hand stitch on the uppers is if the model has a split, apron or skin stitch.

I was surprised by what the salesman told me but the fact that he made a point to show me the hand stitching vs the machine stitching on a pair of loafers and oxfords makes me think there is no miscommunication. I was told hand stitching on bespoke and semi-bespoke was standard for the upper.

I will follow up with them and they will be here in my city next month for a trunk show.

In the Lobb book there is mention of an award winning boot with something like 30+ stitches per inch done by hand.

 

[Texasmade]

I know JLP machine stitches the upper.

As for JLSJ fittings, they’re known for going straight to finish. Not too sure how much I trust that but on one of Kirby Allison’s video, one of the Lobbs made a good point. Eventually you’ll need to make the shoes and you’re just delaying the inevitable. If they don’t fit right, it’s how they handle it that really matters.

My JLP shoes had like 6 fittings, Corthay did 2, Nick Templeman did one.

 

[Hardtmuth]

Color me skeptical. There's a difference between hand-operating a sewing machine and hand sewing with a needle. My hunch is on the former

Yeah but that is like a joke right?

Which leather dress shoes have an upper sewn without a human guide? I've been to many garment factories all over the world and even if its a $1 t-shirt hands are guiding the machines at every stage.

I know JLP machine stitches the upper.

As for JLSJ fittings, they’re known for going straight to finish. Not too sure how much I trust that but on one of Kirby Allison’s video, one of the Lobbs made a good point. Eventually you’ll need to make the shoes and you’re just delaying the inevitable. If they don’t fit right, it’s how they handle it that really matters.

My JLP shoes had like 6 fittings, Corthay did 2, Nick Templeman did one.

Very good to know. I am talking about JLSJ. My apologies for not making that clearer. I always forget how to signify the Bespoke only west end one.

 

[epsilon22]

I know JLP machine stitches the upper.

As for JLSJ fittings, they’re known for going straight to finish. Not too sure how much I trust that but on one of Kirby Allison’s video, one of the Lobbs made a good point. Eventually you’ll need to make the shoes and you’re just delaying the inevitable. If they don’t fit right, it’s how they handle it that really matters.

My JLP shoes had like 6 fittings, Corthay did 2, Nick Templeman did one.

That's a fair point, I suppose they have decided that the risk of having to remake a pair worth the increased turnover (both from people who'd be turned off by having to visit multiple times and lowered gaps between orders from recurring customers).

I think the guy from Permanentstyle did a straight to finish bespoke with Fukuda as well, so I guess if the shoemaker is confident the fit won't be disastrous, they might do it without fitting.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

I was surprised by what the salesman told me but the fact that he made a point to show me the hand stitching vs the machine stitching on a pair of loafers and oxfords makes me think there is no miscommunication. I was told hand stitching on bespoke and semi-bespoke was standard for the upper.

I will follow up with them and they will be here in my city next month for a trunk show.

In the Lobb book there is mention of an award winning boot with something like 30+ stitches per inch done by hand.

As already mentioned, G&G don't hand stitch uppers, other than on for example aprons on loafers, split toes etc. as is standard for all bespoke makers. G&G's bespoke and Optimum are always stitched by Kay, the main closer in the factory, who has decades of experience and been with them since the start. Many bespoke makers don't offer hand stitched even at a steep up charge even if customer ask for it, while some do. No real point with it, since you have to be very skilled doing it by hand to do it as neatly as the machine does.

 

[TimothyF]

Consumers should pay more attention to the output (i.e. the fit) rather than the input of how many fittings. As many have written, and not just with shoes, some makers can fit right with one, others take multiple

 

[Hardtmuth]

As already mentioned, G&G don't hand stitch uppers, other than on for example aprons on loafers, split toes etc. as is standard for all bespoke makers. G&G's bespoke and Optimum are always stitched by Kay, the main closer in the factory, who has decades of experience and been with them since the start. Many bespoke makers don't offer hand stitched even at a steep up charge even if customer ask for it, while some do. No real point with it, since you have to be very skilled doing it by hand to do it as neatly as the machine does.

Noted. The salesman did not know what he was talking about.

Yes, John Lobbs position was that there was no real benefit to hand-stitching the uppers.

Leather craft is a hobby of mine and I love hand stitching. It is technically stronger because of the single thread vs the double thread but on an upper they really shouldn't be getting enough wear and tear to make it worthwhile.

 

[Hardtmuth]

Consumers should pay more attention to the output (i.e. the fit) rather than the input of how many fittings. As many have written, and not just with shoes, some makers can fit right with one, others take multiple

This is my first pair of bespoke shoes so I don't quite have a full idea of what to expect. They have taken nearly a year to make my boots. They will mail them to me before the fitting and then if the fitting goes well they are going to take them back to England to make the trees.

I was a bit dismayed when I went to GG earlier this year and it sounded like so much more went into the shoes and at a lower price.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Noted. The salesman did not know what he was talking about.

Yes, John Lobbs position was that there was no real benefit to hand-stitching the uppers.

Leather craft is a hobby of mine and I love hand stitching. It is technically stronger because of the single thread vs the double thread but on an upper they really shouldn't be getting enough wear and tear to make it worthwhile.

It seems like you’re confusing upper closing and outsole stitching.

 

[Hardtmuth]

It seems like you’re confusing upper closing and outsole stitching.

No I am not. I am talking about the stitching on the upper of the shoe. Both companies do hand-welting and based on the sole you chose the stitching will either be done by hand or machine. I am doing a Norwegian stitch on my boots with an Itshide Commando sole. The outsole will be stitched by machine.

 

[bengal-stripe]

I was surprised by what the salesman told me but the fact that he made a point to show me the hand stitching vs the machine stitching on a pair of loafers and oxfords makes me think there is no miscommunication. I was told hand stitching on bespoke and semi-bespoke was standard for the upper.

I believe there might have been some miscommunication between the two of you.

Loafers frequency have an 'apron' or a 'lake', a row of stitching that runs around the vamp of the shoe. The stitching might be structural (joining two pieces of leather) or it might just be decorative (raising a 'string' that marks the vamp). That seam is also used in 'Norwegian-style' lace-up shoes (EG's 'Dover' being the best known shoe in that style). This type of seams are usually (at least in better footwear) done by hand. Also 'stay stitches', which reinforce the uppers at points of stress, are often placed by hand. Apart from those decorative seams, other seams (along the top line, closing the heal, to either side of a row of broguing are done with a sewing machine.

Competition entries might occasionally have all handstitched uppers, like Daniel Wegan's winning entry to the World Champion ship in 2019. But these were competition shoes and thus an exception to standard ways shoe uppers are made.