The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[Zerase]

Chukka Boots by Materna Schuhe.

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I really don't like your spamming of shoes and what not, but these are actually pretty damn good looking ngl.

 

[DorianGreen]

I really don't like your spamming of shoes and what not, but these are actually pretty damn good looking ngl.

I already put you on my list of ignore members. I don't care at all what's your sentiment about my posts. As I said many times, I post what I feel like to, for the appreciation of some and the scorn of others.

 

[DorianGreen]

Semi Brogue Oxford in suede by Emiko Matsuda.

 

[ZRH1]

I confirm. Having analysed many company records in Italy/UK, nearly no artisan makes more than decent money. I equate it to gastronomy, where at the high end, very very few make money, even when charging several hundred EUR or USD per person.

 

[L.deJong]

I confirm. Having analysed many company records in Italy/UK, nearly no artisan makes more than decent money. I equate it to gastronomy, where at the high end, very very few make money, even when charging several hundred EUR or USD per person.

That's actually a very good observation, I talked with a chef (that was already pensionated) that had at one time two Michelin stars. He told me that he invested more in the best quality produce/food then in his own pension fund and had to work 12-16 hours a day for medium to low wage. All because he would strive for the best quality possible. But to be fair that was in a different time, I think if you are a celebrity chef you will earn way more ofc.

 

[marlinspike]

has way lower costs than Berluti, with two workshops where one is based a stones throw from Champs-Elysees, has representatives travel to trunk shows and meet clients around the world etc), the skill and hence cost of the workforce vary (for example Ugolini keeps his prices down by having a lot of work done by apprentices), the time, effort and refinement of the making vary just as much within "bespoke" as within "Goodyear welted" (for example the way my shoes from Maftei are made vary hugely to the way my pairs from Yohei Fukuda are made), and so on. There's no magic.

And my point that basically no one gets rich on making bespoke shoes still stands.

In a way we are saying the same thing. What you describe about Berluti is the expense of marketing a luxury good. My point was if you are a luxury good, people are going to expect robotic objective perfection. As far as the wages go, I will say that the $60/hour you described is 1.5x (or more) what most prosecuting attorneys get (and they also work many uncompensated hours), so I would consider that no longer a workman's wage (I'm not ignoring that you referenced expenses coming out of that, except for the taxes all regular people pay and salary-earners pay without any deductions, but I don't think $60/hr carries the expected shock value).

 

[marlinspike]

I already put you on my list of ignore members. I don't care at all what's your sentiment about my posts. As I said many times, I post what I feel like to, for the appreciation of some and the scorn of others.

Why not post pictures of your own bespoke shoes instead?

 

[DorianGreen]

Why not post pictures of your own bespoke shoes instead?

As I already said, I have none so far, only RTW and MTO shoes, mostly from renowned brands like John Lobb, Gaziano & Girling, Carmina, Crockett & Jones, Edward Green.

Fortunately I found that a few lasts work pretty good for my feet.

I have to confess though that the more I see these works of art, which bespoke shoes are, the more I wish to order my own ones.

 

[FlowableFill]

In a way we are saying the same thing. What you describe about Berluti is the expense of marketing a luxury good. My point was if you are a luxury good, people are going to expect robotic objective perfection. As far as the wages go, I will say that the $60/hour you described is 1.5x (or more) what most prosecuting attorneys get (and they also work many uncompensated hours), so I would consider that no longer a workman's wage (I'm not ignoring that you referenced expenses coming out of that, except for the taxes all regular people pay and salary-earners pay without any deductions, but I don't think $60/hr carries the expected shock value).

You're confusing billing rate and pay rate. The guy stitching the shoes isn't getting paid $60/hr, I'd be surprised if he gets $20/hr. Nicholas Templeman and Seiji McCarthy were on Derek Guy's podcast recently. They went into detail about how hard it is to make a living as a shoe maker.

 

[JohnMRobie]

I'm sorry that you both feel that way.. I was hoping to sway your opinion otherwise.
Before I continue, I attach a picture of my own work for this technique.
I also have to say I have no ties with the makers of those shoes or the outworker who made them. But I feel sympathy for colleagues.


As a maker I find your position very intimidating and lacking a certain 'insouciance'. To stop at the welt stitching, is to risk missing the lovely folded piece over the back seam, the square hand stay stitch details, the skin stitched apron and the refined welt stitch. All unique details, difficult to execute well (which is the case here) - and most of all signalling every highest intention.

In conversation amongst the trade, we notice the demise of that reverence for "the art and mystery of the shoemaker".
The work here is cast in a cold glare and intense scrutiny, but this is not meant to be so. I don't believe the guy who stitched this shoe ever thought it would be examined like a competition piece.

The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.
The experience of hard toil at some stage in life and the physical difficulties which need to be surmounted to produce this work.

They cannot be blamed, modern life is about avoiding anyone the necessity for this experience. But that experience, which even a lord would have encountered in past lives, working on some part of his estate - would have made for common ground in understanding just how difficult to achieve this result is, and how much appreciation there should be for it - which also makes the very minor flaws so absolutely trivial.

I find it a bit of a shame that the audience and customers here don't seem to possess much of that sense of romance anymore, that realisation that human hands could even make such things with only the help of a few tools..

There’s an old saying that “the loudest boo’s come from the cheap seats” and the more time I spend on SF seeing people talk about bespoke shoes/tailoring/shirts the more this rings true.

I’m not sure if it’s a lack of understanding from people whose experience with handmade or bespoke products starts and ends with what they’ve read on a forum or seen on instagram or if it’s because they value different things or what.

It’s interesting to hear from the makers standpoint but I’ll also offer some things from the customer standpoint.

First and foremost, I really enjoy the process of bespoke. Maybe more than I enjoy the final product. Going through swatches, tracking down a vintage length of fabric, finding a cool piece of leather, etc. Having a discussion with the maker about what we can make from it, seeing their process. It’s cliche but the whole thing is a journey. I also really enjoy the relationships I’ve developed with my makers, the messages we exchange, getting to know them and their families, meals shared. In a world of being able to buy something off a website and have it the next day there’s still something special about getting to find a person who is passionate about what they do, get to know them and get to support their work all while I get some cool stuff that fits well and looks good.

All that being said I still have standards but my order falls something like fit, make, materials, finishing. It feels like the plot has been lost when people are critiquing their pair of Allen Edmonds they got half off or their Spier shirt more critically than I’ve ever looked at a commission.

If someone is after perfection and want the ability to return something I can highly recommend ACME, Yohei Fukuda and Gaziano Girling for consistently putting out really clean RTW work but if you’re after something more, the bespoke process has so much more to offer than counting stitch density and you even get some cool stuff that’ll fit you pretty well at the end too.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

As I already said, I have none so far, only RTW and MTO shoes, mostly from renowned brands like John Lobb, Gaziano & Girling, Carmina, Crockett & Jones, Edward Green.

Fortunately I found that a few lasts work pretty good for my feet.

Think yourself lucky you fit in rtw, you are saving yourself a fortune.
How many bespoke addicts have blown their retirement savings due to addiction.
If you are happy with all the stuff you have, you are well ahead of the game.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

Semi Brogue Oxford in suede by Emiko Matsuda.

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would love to use this maker for a shoe a few shoes.

 

[aristoi bcn]

There’s an old saying that “the loudest boo’s come from the cheap seats” and the more time I spend on SF seeing people talk about bespoke shoes/tailoring/shirts the more this rings true.

I’m not sure if it’s a lack of understanding from people whose experience with handmade or bespoke products starts and ends with what they’ve read on a forum or seen on instagram or if it’s because they value different things or what.

It’s interesting to hear from the makers standpoint but I’ll also offer some things from the customer standpoint.

First and foremost, I really enjoy the process of bespoke. Maybe more than I enjoy the final product. Going through swatches, tracking down a vintage length of fabric, finding a cool piece of leather, etc. Having a discussion with the maker about what we can make from it, seeing their process. It’s cliche but the whole thing is a journey. I also really enjoy the relationships I’ve developed with my makers, the messages we exchange, getting to know them and their families, meals shared. In a world of being able to buy something off a website and have it the next day there’s still something special about getting to find a person who is passionate about what they do, get to know them and get to support their work all while I get some cool stuff that fits well and looks good.

All that being said I still have standards but my order falls something like fit, make, materials, finishing. It feels like the plot has been lost when people are critiquing their pair of Allen Edmonds they got half off or their Spier shirt more critically than I’ve ever looked at a commission.

If someone is after perfection and want the ability to return something I can highly recommend ACME, Yohei Fukuda and Gaziano Girling for consistently putting out really clean RTW work but if you’re after something more, the bespoke process has so much more to offer than counting stitch density and you even get some cool stuff that’ll fit you pretty well at the end too.

Words of wisdom. Cannot agree more.

 

[DorianGreen]

There’s an old saying that “the loudest boo’s come from the cheap seats” and the more time I spend on SF seeing people talk about bespoke shoes/tailoring/shirts the more this rings true.

I’m not sure if it’s a lack of understanding from people whose experience with handmade or bespoke products starts and ends with what they’ve read on a forum or seen on instagram or if it’s because they value different things or what.

It’s interesting to hear from the makers standpoint but I’ll also offer some things from the customer standpoint.

First and foremost, I really enjoy the process of bespoke. Maybe more than I enjoy the final product. Going through swatches, tracking down a vintage length of fabric, finding a cool piece of leather, etc. Having a discussion with the maker about what we can make from it, seeing their process. It’s cliche but the whole thing is a journey. I also really enjoy the relationships I’ve developed with my makers, the messages we exchange, getting to know them and their families, meals shared. In a world of being able to buy something off a website and have it the next day there’s still something special about getting to find a person who is passionate about what they do, get to know them and get to support their work all while I get some cool stuff that fits well and looks good.

All that being said I still have standards but my order falls something like fit, make, materials, finishing. It feels like the plot has been lost when people are critiquing their pair of Allen Edmonds they got half off or their Spier shirt more critically than I’ve ever looked at a commission.

If someone is after perfection and want the ability to return something I can highly recommend ACME, Yohei Fukuda and Gaziano Girling for consistently putting out really clean RTW work but if you’re after something more, the bespoke process has so much more to offer than counting stitch density and you even get some cool stuff that’ll fit you pretty well at the end too.

I understand that bespoke is not only about the final product and agree that the entire process is important and enjoyable as well. Also meeting and getting to know skilled artisans and diving in a world of other times is highly interesting and rewarding.

At the end though, you're spending a considerable sum of money and will obviously expect to get a product that meets your specifications and expectations. Of course a handcrafted product won't ever be as perfect as a machine-made one, nonetheless you have the right to expect that the maker puts any attention and effort in making it as perfect as possible.

 

[DorianGreen]

A stunning Balmoral by Yohei Fukuda. His creations evoke a sense of perfection.