The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[w.efelaborde]

My exact feeling: if I go bespoke, I expect the most accurate execution, besides excellence in materials and construction. I wouldn't be happy with those shoes, as much as I like style and leather.

I'm sorry that you both feel that way.. I was hoping to sway your opinion otherwise.
Before I continue, I attach a picture of my own work for this technique.
I also have to say I have no ties with the makers of those shoes or the outworker who made them. But I feel sympathy for colleagues.


As a maker I find your position very intimidating and lacking a certain 'insouciance'. To stop at the welt stitching, is to risk missing the lovely folded piece over the back seam, the square hand stay stitch details, the skin stitched apron and the refined welt stitch. All unique details, difficult to execute well (which is the case here) - and most of all signalling every highest intention.

In conversation amongst the trade, we notice the demise of that reverence for "the art and mystery of the shoemaker".
The work here is cast in a cold glare and intense scrutiny, but this is not meant to be so. I don't believe the guy who stitched this shoe ever thought it would be examined like a competition piece.

The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.
The experience of hard toil at some stage in life and the physical difficulties which need to be surmounted to produce this work.

They cannot be blamed, modern life is about avoiding anyone the necessity for this experience. But that experience, which even a lord would have encountered in past lives, working on some part of his estate - would have made for common ground in understanding just how difficult to achieve this result is, and how much appreciation there should be for it - which also makes the very minor flaws so absolutely trivial.

I find it a bit of a shame that the audience and customers here don't seem to possess much of that sense of romance anymore, that realisation that human hands could even make such things with only the help of a few tools..

 

[DorianGreen]

I'm sorry that you both feel that way.. I was hoping to sway your opinion otherwise.
Before I continue, I attach a picture of my own work for this technique.
I also have to say I have no ties with the makers of those shoes or the outworker who made them. But I feel sympathy for colleagues.


As a maker I find your position very intimidating and lacking a certain 'insouciance'. To stop at the welt stitching, is to risk missing the lovely folded piece over the back seam, the square hand stay stitch details, the skin stitched apron and the refined welt stitch. All unique details, difficult to execute well (which is the case here) - and most of all signalling every highest intention.

In conversation amongst the trade, we notice the demise of that reverence for "the art and mystery of the shoemaker".
The work here is cast in a cold glare and intense scrutiny, but this is not meant to be so. I don't believe the guy who stitched this shoe ever thought it would be examined like a competition piece.

The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.
The experience of hard toil at some stage in life and the physical difficulties which need to be surmounted to produce this work.

They cannot be blamed, modern life is about avoiding anyone the necessity for this experience. But that experience, which even a lord would have encountered in past lives, working on some part of his estate - would have made for common ground in understanding just how difficult to achieve this result is, and how much appreciation there should be for it - which also makes the very minor flaws so absolutely trivial.

I find it a bit of a shame that the audience and customers here don't seem to possess much of that sense of romance anymore, that realisation that human hands could even make such things with only the help of a few tools..

I really appreciate and highly admire the great work and skills of yours and other shoemakers, as well as of artisans in other fields, and I'm happy that they still exist in the contemporary world.

My comment isn't as negative as it can sound: I like that shoe, I just criticized the execution of that stitching, as I'm certain that it could be better made (as in your example). Of course it's just my sentiment, somebody else could well live with that slight flaw and enjoy unconcerned his shoes.

 

[jazznpool]

I'm sorry that you both feel that way.. I was hoping to sway your opinion otherwise.
Before I continue, I attach a picture of my own work for this technique.
I also have to say I have no ties with the makers of those shoes or the outworker who made them. But I feel sympathy for colleagues.


As a maker I find your position very intimidating and lacking a certain 'insouciance'. To stop at the welt stitching, is to risk missing the lovely folded piece over the back seam, the square hand stay stitch details, the skin stitched apron and the refined welt stitch. All unique details, difficult to execute well (which is the case here) - and most of all signalling every highest intention.

In conversation amongst the trade, we notice the demise of that reverence for "the art and mystery of the shoemaker".
The work here is cast in a cold glare and intense scrutiny, but this is not meant to be so. I don't believe the guy who stitched this shoe ever thought it would be examined like a competition piece.

The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.
The experience of hard toil at some stage in life and the physical difficulties which need to be surmounted to produce this work.

They cannot be blamed, modern life is about avoiding anyone the necessity for this experience. But that experience, which even a lord would have encountered in past lives, working on some part of his estate - would have made for common ground in understanding just how difficult to achieve this result is, and how much appreciation there should be for it - which also makes the very minor flaws so absolutely trivial.

I find it a bit of a shame that the audience and customers here don't seem to possess much of that sense of romance anymore, that realisation that human hands could even make such things with only the help of a few tools..

Thanks for offering your inside perspective! I certainly don't expect perfection but aside from a good fit I do expect overall build quality to be "within normal limits" and representative of the maker's models on display I have examined. Until I am shown otherwise, I have good confidence in the companies I have engaged to deliver the build quality they are known for. Each of them clearly indicated to me that they manage quality control at all phases of the process and stand behind their delivered product.

 

[epsilon22]

I'm sorry that you both feel that way.. I was hoping to sway your opinion otherwise.
Before I continue, I attach a picture of my own work for this technique.
I also have to say I have no ties with the makers of those shoes or the outworker who made them. But I feel sympathy for colleagues.


As a maker I find your position very intimidating and lacking a certain 'insouciance'. To stop at the welt stitching, is to risk missing the lovely folded piece over the back seam, the square hand stay stitch details, the skin stitched apron and the refined welt stitch. All unique details, difficult to execute well (which is the case here) - and most of all signalling every highest intention.

In conversation amongst the trade, we notice the demise of that reverence for "the art and mystery of the shoemaker".
The work here is cast in a cold glare and intense scrutiny, but this is not meant to be so. I don't believe the guy who stitched this shoe ever thought it would be examined like a competition piece.

The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.
The experience of hard toil at some stage in life and the physical difficulties which need to be surmounted to produce this work.

They cannot be blamed, modern life is about avoiding anyone the necessity for this experience. But that experience, which even a lord would have encountered in past lives, working on some part of his estate - would have made for common ground in understanding just how difficult to achieve this result is, and how much appreciation there should be for it - which also makes the very minor flaws so absolutely trivial.

I find it a bit of a shame that the audience and customers here don't seem to possess much of that sense of romance anymore, that realisation that human hands could even make such things with only the help of a few tools..

Thanks for providing your opinion and perspective.

As I've previously admitted, I'm not familiar with this type of welt, so I wouldn't know what is considered to be reasonable/acceptable. Given how prominently those welt stitches are showing, I still don't think I'd be happy with the visibly uneven stitches, and would rather opt for a different style instead - of course, it's also on me to do my own research and ask for samples or pictures of the shoemaker's past works in that style, before deciding to go with it for my order.

If, for example, such uneven stitches appear on the sole stitching on standard handwelted shoes, I wouldn't be happy either. I just didn't know how different (or how much more difficult) this Norwegian welt stitching is compared to standard sole stitching, so I don't know what to expect.

For what it's worth, your work in that picture you shared looks substantially better, the stitches are more uniform. If I saw a sample shoe like that, and received something like the Canons shoe from the previous page, I wouldn't be happy. Even in such case, I probably would ask "Why?" rather than immediately complain and demand a refund/remake. If the shoemaker explains the difficulty and challenges in getting uniform stitches in that style, I would perhaps opt to go with a different welt next time (when I bring the shoes back for a resole maybe).

 

[marlinspike]

I'm sorry that you both feel that way.. I was hoping to sway your opinion otherwise.
...
The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.

To me, this comes down to price. If it is a $3000+ shoe, then handmade or not it better be perfect, because at that point the workman has gone well past workman's wages. I don't really care about it, which is good, because I don't have $3000+ for a pair of shoes. I would rather have the shoe bear the distinguishing maker's signs of the particular worker who made them charges a reasonable wage for the labor involved than some platonic "perfect." However, this seems to be a minority opinion, and anymore products are either consumer garbage for everybody or sky high prices for only the immensely wealthy.

 

[epsilon22]

I think it's a matter of communication and setting expectations. If the client understands what the shoes will look like (either by looking at sample shoes or pictures of past work) then they can decide if they would accept the irregular stitches.

No comment on the lack of experience of manual work as I actually have none. Though to be fair regardless of your occupation, I'm sure your work will be held to certain standards and you still have to communicate to your employers/clients what they can expect from your work.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

To me, this comes down to price. If it is a $3000+ shoe, then handmade or not it better be perfect, because at that point the workman has gone well past workman's wages. I don't really care about it, which is good, because I don't have $3000+ for a pair of shoes. I would rather have the shoe bear the distinguishing maker's signs of the particular worker who made them charges a reasonable wage for the labor involved than some platonic "perfect." However, this seems to be a minority opinion, and anymore products are either consumer garbage for everybody or sky high prices for only the immensely wealthy.

This is one of the big problems, that people think that just because bespoke shoes are expensive, bespoke makers earn a lot of money. They don't. More or less no one doing bespoke make really good money. They are lucky if they can make a living. If they can make a good living, they are hugely successful. And those are few.

Don't want to make it overly complicated, but to give you an idea:
For a first pair of bespoke, including meetings with client, lastmaking, pattern making for fitting shoe, closing of fitting shoe, making of fitting shoe, meeting with client, last corrections (potential repeat of the last steps for one or more further fittings), pattern making for final pair, closing, making, finishing, delivery of final pair etc, if one calculate very low, say 50 hours (could be double that in many cases, and imagine if they would have to do a remake if things go really wrong...), the maker would get $60/hour.

On top of that time listed above, they also need to spend time with administration, sourcing materials, marketing etc. They then have to cover cost for all the materials for the lasts, materials for fitting shoes, materials (very expensive such) for the final shoes, all costs for workshop space and potential showroom space, for travels to trunk shows etc. Then they have to pay taxes, insurances, potential pension fees, etc. What's left, is the salary.

Trust me, it's not "well past workman's wages". In fact, most likely lose money on first orders. It's only for consecutive ones they can start actually get a wage at all.

Yes, bespoke shoes are expensive. But stop believing that the makers are ripping people off just because they charge a high price.

 

[DorianGreen]

Yohei Fukuda.

 

[marlinspike]

This is one of the big problems, that people think that just because bespoke shoes are expensive, bespoke makers earn a lot of money. They don't. More or less no one doing bespoke make really good money. They are lucky if they can make a living. If they can make a good living, they are hugely successful. And those are few.

Don't want to make it overly complicated, but to give you an idea:
For a first pair of bespoke, including meetings with client, lastmaking, pattern making for fitting shoe, closing of fitting shoe, making of fitting shoe, meeting with client, last corrections (potential repeat of the last steps for one or more further fittings), pattern making for final pair, closing, making, finishing, delivery of final pair etc, if one calculate very low, say 50 hours (could be double that in many cases, and imagine if they would have to do a remake if things go really wrong...), the maker would get $60/hour.

On top of that time listed above, they also need to spend time with administration, sourcing materials, marketing etc. They then have to cover cost for all the materials for the lasts, materials for fitting shoes, materials (very expensive such) for the final shoes, all costs for workshop space and potential showroom space, for travels to trunk shows etc. Then they have to pay taxes, insurances, potential pension fees, etc. What's left, is the salary.

Trust me, it's not "well past workman's wages". In fact, most likely lose money on first orders. It's only for consecutive ones they can start actually get a wage at all.

Yes, bespoke shoes are expensive. But stop believing that the makers are ripping people off just because they charge a high price.

Some manage to do that for much less than others. Do they simply exist as a charity?

 

[Texasmade]

Some manage to do that for much less than others. Do they simply exist as a charity?

Cost of living. The ones doing it much cheaper live in a much cheaper area

 

[marlinspike]

Cost of living. The ones doing it much cheaper live in a much cheaper area

Aren't Materna and Maftei both on the cheaper side? I don't think of Vienna as particularly low cost of living.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

Some manage to do that for much less than others. Do they simply exist as a charity?

Of course there's cheaper bespoke shoes. I replied to your statement that "If it is a $3000+ shoe, then handmade or not it better be perfect, because at that point the workman has gone well past workman's wages" and explained why it wasn't correct. I assumed you didn't think makers offering cheaper bespoke had "gone well past workman's wages".

But of course there's a huge variation within "bespoke shoes", in exactly the same way as within "Goodyear welted shoes". You will always pay more for a pair of Gaziano & Girling than for a pair of Meermin or Thursday Boots, even if they are all "Goodyear welted shoes".

Where they are produced and all that comes with that is of course a given that already has been mentioned (as an example, Maftei has always used a large part of Romanian workforce, either working in Romania or Romanians travelling to work in Austria), what type of overhead costs that applies vary vastly (for example Eiji Murata of Main d'Or who works out of the lower floor of his house in Chiba, never travels and only market himself via his Instagram has way lower costs than Berluti, with two workshops where one is based a stones throw from Champs-Elysees, has representatives travel to trunk shows and meet clients around the world etc), the skill and hence cost of the workforce vary (for example Ugolini keeps his prices down by having a lot of work done by apprentices), the time, effort and refinement of the making vary just as much within "bespoke" as within "Goodyear welted" (for example the way my shoes from Maftei are made vary hugely to the way my pairs from Yohei Fukuda are made), and so on. There's no magic.

And my point that basically no one gets rich on making bespoke shoes still stands.

 

[DorianGreen]

Beautiful loafer by Calzoleria Carlino.

 

[comrade]

The prime flaw I perceive with the conversation taking place here is that perhaps many of its participants lack one crucial source of knowledge: the experience of manual work.

1. The reality probably is that the great majority of those who can afford bespoke shoes do not do manual work unless they have a hobby, eg wood-
working that involves it.
2. I skimmed these plaintive passages with interest. The second
reality it that I find the stiching shown on the brogue very unattractive, no matter the skill and work that went into it. In fact "Goyser-stitching", of which
it appears to be an example, would be a reason I would reject the shoes.

 

[DorianGreen]

Chukka Boots by Materna Schuhe.