The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[dieworkwear]

get measured by a lastmaker with good experience,
ie, adam.
that would work.

No. There are people who have had their measurements taken by Adam, and still had the same results.

 

[aristoi bcn]

No. There are people who have had their measurements taken by Adam, and still had the same results.

 

[Concordia]

View attachment 1545894

Very nice, although I prefer that the swan neck be made with the same kind of broguing as on the seams lower down. Still, very elegant shape!

 

[clee1982]

It your fault.
You ask salesman to measure your foot for bespoke.
You ask salesman to make alteration for bespoke.
That not bespoke!
Bespoke is using skilled men to make shoe,
you use salesman for most important part.
Last maker should measure foot and make alteration.
Many man naive,
he not know how things work,
he not ready for bespoke.
People take advantage of naive man,
they smell weakness.
They try that trick on me,
and me point to George and say "you get Teemu and fix it"
and me say "you make many many mistake"
and me say "you fly him here and not cut corner"
and me say "me know what you up to George"
and me crunch his knuckle.

The george cleverley,
he make very very good shoe for right type of man.
he make bad shoe for many naive man,
me know many naive man who got bad cleverley shoe.
cleverley know right type of man to con.
it sad,
but not all man ready to do cleverley.




Me hear it to.

Good last maker + excellent bottom maker = excellent cleverley
salesman measure foot + any piece worker make bottom = can be ordinary

Fundamentally that’s just f’ed up, like do I have to purposely be a giant d’ck to get the right shoe?

 

[Son Of Saphir]

No. There are people who have had their measurements taken by Adam, and still had the same results.

that is sad.
how long Adam do last making now?

Fundamentally that’s just f’ed up, like do I have to purposely be a giant d’ck to get the right shoe?

showing great discernment go long long way.
many client not do that with Cleverley,
he say nothing and let the process happen.
A man need to know about fit and how his foot change over day and tell last maker so he get excellent result,
many man not know these things.
Man establish great expectation and nothing less,
but many man not do that.
It more difficult to get good fit with shoe than tailor sometimes because foot sit inside shoe and it hard to see and foot change a lot in day.
Last maker need guidance from client,
and great lastmaker and client have meeting of minds,
but many man not have meeting of minds..
It very important for lastmaker and client to work together imo.
Going to bespoke shoemaker is very hard work and lot of stress,
lot of things need to be talked about,
both need to perform at high level to get fit good.
Many man settle for less with Cleverley because he lack knowledge.
Me only man who got perfect result from Cleverley,
all other man get poor result,
me and Teemu talk in great detail,
no other man did it like that,
me have japanese man make my shoe from Cleverley,
perfect work of art that stand out because Cleverley knew me have very high standard,
most men not like that,
he not communicate good like me did.
Many man not ready for bespoke with Cleverley,
so he get a version of mtm.

Rule = know your feet and have meeting of minds.
Most man not have clue.

Cleverley made my shoe wrong fit at first,
me set george straight and insist Teemu fly to trunk show next time,
me talk to Teemu and went over 20 things to get fit exactly.
we have good meeting of mind (most important).
also had last specially designed to accommodate foot change in day so foot slide down shoe without making it longer or less elegant,
it special trick.
Asked for curve of shoe on outside to be slightly held back to end of shoe more to accommodate foot changes.
It worked perfectly!
Teemu know what me wanted,
we perfected everything because we had meeting of mind down to finest details.
Me study some basic lasting and shoemaking so Teemu and me could have these conversations.
Teemu write to me and thank me saying it so good to work with man who appreciate finer details and have good knowledge.
Man can not be mute and stay silent,
he need to talk with last maker and have meeting of minds.
If you meet with salesman,
you need to go back to school and learn more.

Rule = use common sense and be observant.
Many man not ready for great result because he not develop these skills,
he not observant and he not use common sense.

George right,
many man not ready for Cleverley.

 

[clee1982]

there is a degree of difference, some have more knowledge than other (even if client have minimal knowledge the result shouldn't be worse than getting fitted by sales guy at AE), but if GC needs that much guidance from client, then they're not ready as a shop, they need to "learn" more before I would call them a proper shop.

 

[Son Of Saphir]

there is a degree of difference, some have more knowledge than other (even if client have minimal knowledge the result shouldn't be worse than getting fitted by sales guy at AE), but if GC needs that much guidance from client, then they're not ready as a shop, they need to "learn" more before I would call them a proper shop.

It is not black or white like that.
Many man seem happy with basic fit,
you see it in the bespoke shoes people wear.
Getting the finer fit needs input from client.
Cleverley can do basic good fit,
last maker can do that without any input from client.

but many man now measured and fitted by salesman at Cleverley,
his shoes ill fitting and not good basic fit.

 

[dieworkwear]

that is sad.
how long Adam do last making now?



showing great discernment go long long way.
many client not do that with Cleverley,
he say nothing and let the process happen.
A man need to know about fit and how his foot change over day and tell last maker so he get excellent result,
many man not know these things.
Man establish great expectation and nothing less,
but many man not do that.
It more difficult to get good fit with shoe than tailor sometimes because foot sit inside shoe and it hard to see and foot change a lot in day.
Last maker need guidance from client,
and great lastmaker and client have meeting of minds,
but many man not have meeting of minds..
It very important for lastmaker and client to work together imo.
Going to bespoke shoemaker is very hard work and lot of stress,
lot of things need to be talked about,
both need to perform at high level to get fit good.
Many man settle for less with Cleverley because he lack knowledge.
Me only man who got perfect result from Cleverley,
all other man get poor result,
me and Teemu talk in great detail,
no other man did it like that,
me have japanese man make my shoe from Cleverley,
perfect work of art that stand out because Cleverley knew me have very high standard,
most men not like that,
he not communicate good like me did.
Many man not ready for bespoke with Cleverley,
so he get a version of mtm.

Rule = know your feet and have meeting of minds.
Most man not have clue.

Cleverley made my shoe wrong fit at first,
me set george straight and insist Teemu fly to trunk show next time,
me talk to Teemu and went over 20 things to get fit exactly.
we have good meeting of mind (most important).
also had last specially designed to accommodate foot change in day so foot slide down shoe without making it longer or less elegant,
it special trick.
Asked for curve of shoe on outside to be slightly held back to end of shoe more to accommodate foot changes.
It worked perfectly!
Teemu know what me wanted,
we perfected everything because we had meeting of mind down to finest details.
Me study some basic lasting and shoemaking so Teemu and me could have these conversations.
Teemu write to me and thank me saying it so good to work with man who appreciate finer details and have good knowledge.
Man can not be mute and stay silent,
he need to talk with last maker and have meeting of minds.
If you meet with salesman,
you need to go back to school and learn more.

Rule = use common sense and be observant.
Many man not ready for great result because he not develop these skills,
he not observant and he not use common sense.

George right,
many man not ready for Cleverley.

I know this is like your schtick, but I wish you would write like a normal person. Your prose makes it very difficult to get through your points, and it doesn't add any charm or humor.

I've used many bespoke makers and your points don't reflect my experience. This sort of mumbo jumbo stuff is for people who like to pretend bespoke is some magical, almost sensual, experience (often used to gain internet points). I find that good bespoke is often very simple. That's literally the point of going bespoke -- for the simplicity and ease. But it's hard to find good bespoke makers nowadays.

Can you post photos of your Cleverley shoes?

 

[hkoldguy]

its the job of the bespoke maker to ask those questions he need to get a good result.
GC is an established and experienced establishment not like a new maker in China.

in any event the finishing of those alligator scale are not acceptable

 

[hkoldguy]

It is not black or white like that.
Many man seem happy with basic fit,
you see it in the bespoke shoes people wear.
Getting the finer fit needs input from client.
Cleverley can do basic good fit,
last maker can do that without any input from client.

but many man now measured and fitted by salesman at Cleverley,
his shoes ill fitting and not good basic fit.

Then cleverley shouldn’t let salesman do fitting.

 

[clee1982]

It is not black or white like that.
Many man seem happy with basic fit,
you see it in the bespoke shoes people wear.
Getting the finer fit needs input from client.
Cleverley can do basic good fit,
last maker can do that without any input from client.

but many man now measured and fitted by salesman at Cleverley,
his shoes ill fitting and not good basic fit.

your muddle the water too much, based on what has shown so far, many are unhappy with the basic fit, it's like 1 size too big in RTW kind bad fit zero justification for that.

 

[WhyUEarly]

If I had all this knowledge on shoes, I don't understand why I would choose Cleverly. Presumably, wouldn't I have good results with any bespoke shoemaker if I was able to articulate all the nuances of fit? If bespoke is the pinnacle of make, then why is GC charging bespoke prices for have salesman fit customers? Heck they should charge higher prices for the "real" bespoke process for "real man" with a real shoemaker...

Yes, customers should be knowledgeable, but GC shouldn't use ****** alligator leather or refuse to remeasure/refit before a remake either...

 

[dieworkwear]

What do you think are the chances that Nicholas Templeman happens to make better shoes than Cleverley, based on Son of Saphir's guide on how to deal with bespoke makers?

Is it just that Nicholas' customers are more sensually in tune with him? Or is it that he's a better maker?

Is it just that some people don't know how to have this sensual experience with Cleverley? Or is that they're a bad maker?

I won't name them because it seems unnecessary. But there's a group of forum enthusiasts who love nothing more than to propose bespoke as some sensual, magical experience. I once had lunch with a friend who both hosts trunk shows at his store, and has a lot of experience with bespoke tailors and shoemakers. He said something like, "a lot of these guys sound like they're looking for a father figure."

You see this in a lot of forum writing. This idea of the Elegant Gentleman who knows how to wield the bespoke crafts as a customer. He knows all the right language and can become Muy Elegante through these makers. He knows how to channel their energy. He knows how to whisper to them, like they're horses. It's complete baloney, in my view. This sort of view and writing is only done for internet points.

I used to hold the view that you have to have the cutter or lastmaker at your fitting. I've only used two bespoke shoemakers (true bespoke, not the remote stuff), so my experience is limited. But with tailoring, I've found that a lot depends. I've had bad experiences with the cutter present; I've had good experiences with only the fitter present.

The most I can say is that people are better off leaving themselves in the hands of the person they're working with. If that person is not any good, your interjecting and micromanaging is not going to make them better. If they're good, they don't need you to tell them how your feet swell at 3pm vs. 5pm. (Also, you will sound wildly corny to this person, and they will gossip about you later).

Unfortunately, bespoke is so spotty nowadays, you as a customer have to figure out who's good and who's not. So if you order something, and the first order doesn't turn out well -- say it's a disaster -- I think it's a bad idea to go back for a second order. No amount of horse whispering is going to make the situation better. I assume it used to be that you could rely on the reputation of these houses (I can only assume, as I didn't order bespoke clothes during the supposed Golden Age). So I think of it like going to restaurants. You try something out, and if you don't like it, just don't go back. If the place is good, then place a new order, like you would with a restaurant.

 

[WhyUEarly]

This idea of the Elegant Gentleman who knows how to wield the bespoke crafts as a customer. He knows all the right language and can become Muy Elegante through these makers. He knows how to channel their energy. He knows how to whisper to them, like they're horses. It's complete baloney, in my view. This sort of view and writing is only done for internet points.

You mean like the basis of an entire marketing campaign?

 

[dieworkwear]

You mean like the basis of an entire marketing campaign?

Very close! There are online personalities that are basically that character.

This reminds me of two stories, which I've recounted before (but for those who haven't heard). Two friends of mine also buy shoes from Nicholas. On two separate occasions, they went to a trunk show wearing their recently delivered Templeman shoes. They came to the trunk show to order another pair. But when they arrived, Nicholas saw something wrong with their shoes and asked if he could have them back, so he could fix some small issue.

This seems like the point of bespoke. Why should a customer have to double-check a maker's work? The whole point of paying all this money is that you assume 1) the experience will be smooth and enjoyable, and 2) the person you're hiring has the skills, knowledge, and eye for these things. They should be able to spot issues you don't see, and be willing to fix them without your prompting.

This issue pops up in bespoke tailoring, too. Some tailors will fix things without you asking; some will send you on your way with a bad coat. I haven't found that any kind of horse whispering will resolve issues -- some people are simply better at thier job and more honest than others (like any trade). If you have to dance with your maker to get good items, like some kind of snake charmer, I don't know if I even see the point.