The Bespoke Shoes Thread

[patrickBOOTH]

I'd think there is little room for error here. Screw up one hole and the entire section needs to be replaced and you have to start over.

 

[DWFII]

No one wants/needs to hear this and, in reality, I don't want to say it--but as long as we're talking subjective opinions (not addressing which is "best"), I don't particularly care for skewed toe caps (even though I know how hard it is to keep them running straight without a forepart lasting machine).

And long toe caps look unbalanced to me.

FWIW...IMO...

?

 

[patrickBOOTH]

What is a skewed toe cap?

 

[Manuel]

A little bit of distraction from the fisticuffs

Toward the end of last year (2018), I commissioned 3 semi-bespoke cap toe Oxfords, all in Burgundy antique, from three different makers. All done on “modified standard” lasts to varying degrees.

And the candidates are in. Who did it best?

1. St. Crispins Model 522B (design modified)
2. GC Cleverley’s Anthony Cleverly Nakagawa
3. Edward Green Cadogan 202C Last

View attachment 1204220 View attachment 1204221 View attachment 1204222 View attachment 1204223 View attachment 1204224 View attachment 1204225 View attachment 1204226 View attachment 1204227 View attachment 1204228

Alan Bee

Each one of them has its own personality, aesthetically I like three models, the fit is a different matter,

 

[DWFII]

What is a skewed toe cap?

It doesn't run straight across the toe of the shoe, or it has a 'wow' in the edge.

 

[Zapasman]

With a round stitch the awl splits the leather edges of both pieces to be joined. It never goes all the way through. If you think about it, you can see that there is a seam on the toe. And if you look carefully, you can see that the edges are butted up against each other. Edge to edge. So, if the stitching is visible/proud on one side but not the other, it follows that the stitches must lie in the center of the substance (thickness).

Is that clear? If not, I can probably come up with an illustration (even if I have to make it).

Split and lift is a variation of all 'skin stitching'. It starts like a round stitch--the awl penetrating the surface of the apron and emerging at the edge. Ideally, right in the center of the substance..every stitch. Then the awl penetrates the entire substance of the sides of the vamp, entering on the fleshside and emerging on the grain side--straight shot through the leather.

It requires more than a little focused attention to do either of these techniques and it certainly takes more time both in preparation and in execution just because of that. Keeping the awl, and consequently the stitches themselves, as precisely in the center of the substance of the leather as possible is no easy task. And of course not every leather is firm enough to hold up during this process esp. if the maker does not adapt his thread weight appropriately or if he doesn't know how to use boars bristles properly.

As good or not so good as this explanation might be, to really understand, you have to have been there.

?

PS (on edit) ...FWIW, a round stitched seam, done correctly and in good leather is considered the strongest seam known to man.

Thanks DW for your elaborated explanation, but sorry to say I still have the same doubt . If you take into account the toe seam we are talking about 3 different seams:

1.-Round stitching or "Skin stitching" at the toes of both pics. I understand the technique and have seem videos and one clear graphic you posted before here (round stitching).
2.-Pie Crust stitching (Nicholas or west end term?) on the apron of the red shoes. Do you mean is the same technique used in nº 1?. I am missing this part.
3.-Split &Lift on the apron. I see this technique on the Nicholas´ brown shoes pics and it seems clear to me .

Having said that I vaguely recall the nice Nicholas´ own drawings that were posted here about apron stitching techniques (raised & cut/pie crust/split & lift ) but the execution of nº 2 technique is not still clear to me. I am using here his terms (if my mind deserves me well).

Let me put it simple and see if I got it:

Nº1. Stitching/joining both leathers through their edges (rounded stitiching) .
Nº2.-One of leathers is stitched through its edge while the other through the surface joining both pieces?. That is what I thought, but still not clear to me.
nº3.-Surface to surface.

I understand that technique n1 is much more difficult to execute than nº2 & 3, but what about nº2 compared to nº 3?.

Thank you again!!.

Ps.-Once upon a time I received a MTO boot from a well known GYW manufactured using nº3 technique insted of the nº 2 technique I ordered. A manufacturing shortcut?.

 

[psb]

After 10 month delivery time i received my made to measure wholecuts from Buday, having a brass toe and a custom made shoe tree.

 

[DWFII]

@Zapasman

As far as I can tell from the photos, the red shoes in your post #1699 are split and lift.

I don't really know what 'pie crust' means. I thought it was a misnomer for split and lift, but perhaps I am mistaken.

That said the brown shoes (photo #1) in your post #1699 are not split and lift and are likely to be done as in the 3rd illustration below, labeled "pie crust?"

The toe seam is done by round closing from the fleshside on the red shoes, but the toe seam can also be done as in the 3rd illustration below, either by hand or by machine and depending on whether the sewing is done from the grainside or the fleshside have a very different appearance.

Apologies for the crude illustrations...quickly done.

 

[taxgenius]

After 10 month delivery time i received my made to measure wholecuts from Buday, having a brass toe and a custom made shoe tree.

View attachment 1204833 View attachment 1204834 View attachment 1204835 View attachment 1204836 View attachment 1204837

Have you tried MTO from Vass too?

 

[DWFII]

There's another kind of 'apron' stitch that you sometimes see, although I don't know what it is called simply because it's not really a seam and the apron is not really a separate piece.

Looks something like this...sometimes a cord is emplaced to exaggerate the bead or firm it up but sometimes it's not even needed.

PS...this illustration needs a bit of revising...Done!.

 

[Zapasman]

Hi DW, that illustration is great!. I did not know that figure nº 3 was a round stitching too, but it makes sense.. I was missing the technique of nº 2 whatever the right term is.

Now that we have the whole picture of those 3 (or two) techniques, my question was. Do you find

@Zapasman

As far as I can tell from the photos, the red shoes in your post #1699 are split and lift.

I don't really know what 'pie crust' means. I thought it was a misnomer for split and lift, but perhaps I am mistaken.

That said the brown shoes (photo #1) in your post #1699 are not split and lift and are likely to be done as in the 3rd illustration below, labeled "pie crust?"

The toe seam is done by round closing from the fleshside on the red shoes, but the toe seam can also be done as in the 3rd illustration below, either by hand or by machine and depending on whether the sewing is done from the grainside or the fleshside have a very different appearance.

Apologies for the crude illustrations...quickly done.





View attachment 1204841

That is fantastic DW!. I did not know that figure nº3 was a round stitching too, but it makes all the sense. Now that I have the whole picture (whatever the right terminology is), does figure nº2 requires more level of expertise/time to execute than figure nº 3?. If so, why?. I understand that figure nº 1 is the most difficult to execute (and the strongest), but what about the other two?. They seem similar to execute to me. Thanks.

 

[psb]

Have you tried MTO from Vass too?

Not yet, could you recommend the Vass too ?

 

[Zapasman]

There's another kind of 'apron' stitch that you sometimes see, although I don't know what it is called simply because it's not really a seam and the apron is not really a separate piece.

Looks something like this...sometimes a cord is emplaced to exaggerate the bead or firm it up but sometimes it's not even needed.

View attachment 1204875

I understand that´s what we call ornamental apron stitching. Nicholas pointed out long ago in the right thread, (sorry about it...) that you can also make a thin cut along the top of the leather apron with a knife to give the appearance of stitching two separate pieces. Very curious what you mentioned about the cord. Never hear of it before. Thanks for all your clarificatiosn and for taking the time to educate us with your drawings. You should insert your latest posts in your "Shoemaking Techniques.." thread. Cheers.

 

[taxgenius]

Not yet, could you recommend the Vass too ?

I have RTW from both brands. Although the Buday fit me better, the leather from Vass appears to me to be thicker and less prone to wrinkles.

 

[DWFII]

That is fantastic DW!. I did not know that figure nº3 was a round stitching too, but it makes all the sense. Now that I have the whole picture (whatever the right terminology is), does figure nº2 requires more level of expertise/time to execute than figure nº 3?. If so, why?. I understand that figure nº 1 is the most difficult to execute (and the strongest), but what about the other two?. They seem similar to execute to me. Thanks.

If you're talking about my illustrations, fig. #3 is not round closing. It's just a standard closing seam....can be done by machine.

#1 & #2 are hand stitching only. The machine that can do #1 or #2 at all, much less with finesse, has yet to be invented. I suspect it never will be.

Yes, split & lift (#2) is more difficult than #3. With split and lift you have to very precisely run the awl through the substance of the apron. Even on the vamp portion, the awl, while piercing all the way through the substance, has to be controlled as to how far way from the edge it is and how'straight' and consistent the line of stitching is. It is all too easy to get too deep or too shallow and weaken the seam. And much in the way of variation as to where the awl emerges (on either piece)tends to make the seam irregular and clumsy looking.

#3 is just piercing the leather grain to flesh, flesh to grain. The upright portion in the illustration could theoretically be any height, although naturally the more refined the better it looks.