Huntsman
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Gents, thanks so much -- I've read everything twice and I appreciate it all. I'm archiving the info in the case that I go this route as there are too many gems that are rarely found by one in my position.
- I don't have a link to a 3-year curriculum, but here's mine.
Anyway, hope that was somewhat helpful; I'm a 2005 graduate, so I think it reflects the kinds of classes most people take these days. Feel free to ask follow-up questions.
Sad to hear about class participation being of little value, as I am rather eager in class. I especially appreciate reading over your curriculum, just to get an idea of things.
Social life in law school is an interesting animal. You share your schedule with all the other students in your section, so you can get to know everyone pretty well. This is the reason many say law school is like high school. Given the student body, I'd say it was worse than high school.
Law firms generally hire twice a year, in the fall and spring, for summer associate positions. Fall is when the bigger firms will come on campus to interview. As a first year, your grades wouldn't have come out yet, so you'll have to rely on your charm to get a paying job. Most first year law students don't get a paid job their first summer: externships with judges, pro bono volunteer work and research assistants with professors are common alternatives.
As an attorney (I'm speaking generally here, not specific to patent) in addition to your reading, analysis and writing skills that you developed in law school, you'll need to learn how to research. I think this is the most frustrating thing as a working attorney. Law school is generally closed universe, they provide the cases that you need to read. Associates have to find them, and if you're not good at it, it is very time consuming. Also, at a law firm, you have to bill your time. This leads to unhappiness for a lot of people, because you often find that you're either too busy or have nothing to do.
I also note that you can pass the patent bar without going to law school. If you want to draft patents, this might not be a bad way to get your feet wet.
Solid. Thanks.
Won't know until the LSAT, I suppose. My GPA's great for an engineer, and though I like my area and would prefer to stay, I hope to be able to go anywhere I wish within a year or so.
Sounds like you're well-situated. As I said above, being able to absorb and synthesize large amounts of information is a very important skill for law school. The availability of non-law electives will vary by school, but I think such opportunities generally exist. (I know they did at Boalt when I was there.) Many schools also have joint degree programs with other institutions that would allow you to bring in classes from other fields. For example, I know people I was in school with had joint JD/MBA programs, joint JD/Government (not sure of the exact title) programs with the Fletcher School, joint JD/Social Policy, Jurisprudence programs (JD + an extra helping of philosphy, more or less), etc.
That's good to read, as my earliest dream was to be a man of letters, and I have a hard time living to utter exclusivity in one area, e.g Engineering grad work, where they never let you out. For anything. Ever.
Night school while working at the PTO is not a bad way to go, as long as there is no Mrs. Huntsman (or Mrs. Huntsman is understanding). The job would correlates rather well with your likely future career, and you'll get an in-depth understanding of the prosecution side of the patent business.
Awesome! And no Mrs. Huntsman, which is why I figure I better get on with this.
Most classes are taught using the Socratic method. Some teachers are more hardcore about it than others (one of mine randomly picked students and made them stand and speak without using notes for about a half hour on a given case, if you didn't know what you were talking about you were counted absent). Generally I think we read about 200 pages a week (some people read each case slowly and briefed it, others like me read each case about 3 times and took notes in the margins of the book, and some didn't read at all). So it's not like an undergraduate lecture where you can just show up and copy down notes from a powerpoint. The plus side is, class participation matters little in most classes but attendence is taken and supposedly required by the ABA.
I enjoy the Socratic method above all things. My favorite class was a grad Philosophy class in which the Prof would have one of us "teach the class" for a period -- sounds very much like your experience.
Meh. This is actually not bad in my view. Socially, most people in HS and college were afraid of me so I had little drama. Would expect to continue in that vein.
At most schools, people don't flunk out if they honestly try. Much more people quit in the first two weeks, quit after the first semester, or quit after the first year than actually get kicked out.
This is engineering without numerical integration. Weird.
My top three tips:
1. Unless you know that you want to practice in a certain geographic area, attend the best law school that admitted you.
2. In law school, what you know is not as important as how you say it -- study model exam answers written by students (usually on file in the library).
3. After law school, what you know is not as important as who you know -- network as much as possible because you never know who will be in a position to give a positive reference on your behalf or tell you about a job opening.
The 'prestige' factor is perhaps the most repeated thread here. I had hoped to qualify for a top 15, but accept a lower ranking school that offered me cash, but I'll consider that more carefully.
You're pretty sure the reasonable prudent man is a friendless tool who still lives with his mother.
Loved that one.
Lots of poker and drinking first year.
Honed the golf game second and third year. Spent the winters playing Quake 2 and traveling to Foxwoods.
Highlight of my 3rd year was when my phone rang two weeks before fall exams:
"Hello, is Montecristo#4 there?"
"Yes, speaking."
"This is XXXXXX YYYYYYYY."
"Umm, okay." [Who is this guy?]
"I'm your Human Rights professor."
[Oh, ****!]
"If you don't come to class, I'm not going to be able to pass you."
Got a A- in that class. LOL.
Most people who attend law school don't know how to study, have relatively poor logical skills, and can't write worth a damn. If you're reasonably proficient at these things, the horror stories don't apply.
I have great study skills, am considered logical by engineers, and write exceptionally well, so I like what I hear here.
eg, I have, but I know too little about the opportunities in Finance to even pose a cogent question here. Philosophically, I'm not sure Finance is for me, and I'd hate to completely abandon engineering, which I do enjoy. From things I read, it seems as if sales is always involved somewhere, and I don't really have the temperment for that. I would like to know some more, though,
For the record, I don't hate law school. For the most part, I also like my law professors. However, it's amazing to see how fast people lose their humanity here. A semi-normal, semi-sociable, semi-friendly entering student will turn into a complete self-absorbed, self-righteous, asshole by the end of the second year. I have friends who are graduate students of the other departments, and I can clearly see the difference. Not that they study any less, but they somehow manage to have a life and can hold a normal conversation about something else other than their work. In other words, they're normal.
Some law students still manage to have a normal life, but they're the exceptions, not the norms. The one common thread that I've been able to discern from this group is that they stay away from the school as much as they can. As for myself, I go to class, then straight home or to my gf's house (she's also a law student). I hang out with about a handful of law students, the rest of my group of friends are graduate students at the other schools. I can feel my blood pressure rising every time I enter the school. The most immediate impetus is usually from seeing the dark and grim faces of the other law students.
Man, you sound so much like you're talking about engineers. And, I might add, you sound a bit like me talking about my undergrad -- I used to say that the best part of my day was leaving the Uni for home.
Best,
Huntsman
And to be completely honest, class participation counts for extremely little in law school classes, so if grades are all you care about, you can simply start studying for the finals and blow off the class for the most part.Originally Posted by Earthmover
- I don't have a link to a 3-year curriculum, but here's mine.
Anyway, hope that was somewhat helpful; I'm a 2005 graduate, so I think it reflects the kinds of classes most people take these days. Feel free to ask follow-up questions.
Sad to hear about class participation being of little value, as I am rather eager in class. I especially appreciate reading over your curriculum, just to get an idea of things.
Law school is reading, analysis and writing. As other have mentioned, the first year, you get an overview of the most basic topics in the law, and you also take a writing course. After your first year, you can choose your which courses you want to take. Most people take courses that will be tested on the bar, others take courses based on interest or they follow their favorite professors.Originally Posted by Renault78law
Social life in law school is an interesting animal. You share your schedule with all the other students in your section, so you can get to know everyone pretty well. This is the reason many say law school is like high school. Given the student body, I'd say it was worse than high school.
Law firms generally hire twice a year, in the fall and spring, for summer associate positions. Fall is when the bigger firms will come on campus to interview. As a first year, your grades wouldn't have come out yet, so you'll have to rely on your charm to get a paying job. Most first year law students don't get a paid job their first summer: externships with judges, pro bono volunteer work and research assistants with professors are common alternatives.
As an attorney (I'm speaking generally here, not specific to patent) in addition to your reading, analysis and writing skills that you developed in law school, you'll need to learn how to research. I think this is the most frustrating thing as a working attorney. Law school is generally closed universe, they provide the cases that you need to read. Associates have to find them, and if you're not good at it, it is very time consuming. Also, at a law firm, you have to bill your time. This leads to unhappiness for a lot of people, because you often find that you're either too busy or have nothing to do.
I also note that you can pass the patent bar without going to law school. If you want to draft patents, this might not be a bad way to get your feet wet.
Solid. Thanks.
As far as schools, that's tough to say. Do you have geographic limitations? Without getting too personal, do you have a shooting (pun intended) chance at getting into one of the 15-20 schools that tout themselves as "top 10"? I can't really speak to the market for in-house lawyers, but in terms of getting your first law school job, having gone to a school with a high "prestige" factor is a big help.Originally Posted by lawyerdad
Won't know until the LSAT, I suppose. My GPA's great for an engineer, and though I like my area and would prefer to stay, I hope to be able to go anywhere I wish within a year or so.
Originally Posted by lawyerdad
Sounds like you're well-situated. As I said above, being able to absorb and synthesize large amounts of information is a very important skill for law school. The availability of non-law electives will vary by school, but I think such opportunities generally exist. (I know they did at Boalt when I was there.) Many schools also have joint degree programs with other institutions that would allow you to bring in classes from other fields. For example, I know people I was in school with had joint JD/MBA programs, joint JD/Government (not sure of the exact title) programs with the Fletcher School, joint JD/Social Policy, Jurisprudence programs (JD + an extra helping of philosphy, more or less), etc.
That's good to read, as my earliest dream was to be a man of letters, and I have a hard time living to utter exclusivity in one area, e.g Engineering grad work, where they never let you out. For anything. Ever.
I have a BSE, MSE, and am current in my 3rd year of 4 at the GWU night program in DC - while working for the USPTO during the day. I'll probably slide into IP law on the other side - I've already taken and passed the Patent Registration Exam (aka the Patent Bar), so I can easily start with patent prosecution, and then into litigation or licensing. One nice perk of the PTO is that after two years of service, the PTO will pay for your tuition, but there's a service commitment involved (the time calculation formula is rather complicated, but basically - if you have them pay for all the classes, you'll owe about 20 months). One negative of the perk - no summer internships that will get you a nice start on your career at a firm.Originally Posted by NoVaguy
Night school while working at the PTO is not a bad way to go, as long as there is no Mrs. Huntsman (or Mrs. Huntsman is understanding). The job would correlates rather well with your likely future career, and you'll get an in-depth understanding of the prosecution side of the patent business.
Awesome! And no Mrs. Huntsman, which is why I figure I better get on with this.
I pretty much agree with everything that's been said.Originally Posted by crazyquik
Most classes are taught using the Socratic method. Some teachers are more hardcore about it than others (one of mine randomly picked students and made them stand and speak without using notes for about a half hour on a given case, if you didn't know what you were talking about you were counted absent). Generally I think we read about 200 pages a week (some people read each case slowly and briefed it, others like me read each case about 3 times and took notes in the margins of the book, and some didn't read at all). So it's not like an undergraduate lecture where you can just show up and copy down notes from a powerpoint. The plus side is, class participation matters little in most classes but attendence is taken and supposedly required by the ABA.
I enjoy the Socratic method above all things. My favorite class was a grad Philosophy class in which the Prof would have one of us "teach the class" for a period -- sounds very much like your experience.
Socially law school is like high school. You'll probably have 125-180ish people in your class and these people will all eventually know each other. Cliques form. Backs get stabbed. Some people there will have never had a job, others will be young dropouts from professional or corporate America, others will be recent military, and some will probably be 10+ year cops or military so about 30-35 years old.Originally Posted by crazyquik
Meh. This is actually not bad in my view. Socially, most people in HS and college were afraid of me so I had little drama. Would expect to continue in that vein.
At most schools, people don't flunk out if they honestly try. Much more people quit in the first two weeks, quit after the first semester, or quit after the first year than actually get kicked out.
Assigned reading is typically edited down versions of appellate opinions. You read them and have to tease out the rule of law, the legal issue, etc. Eventually you'll collect a lot of rules together into an outline, and then on the exam be given a 2 page fact pattern and you'll need to spot all the issues, apply the facts in the fact pattern and the legal rules you learned, and then write something down. Getting the 'right' answer isn't as important as spotting the issue, using the rule, and applying the facts.Originally Posted by crazyquik
This is engineering without numerical integration. Weird.
Surviving law school is a badge of honor for many lawyers. It was a lot of work, but I did not find it as bad as some of the descriptions in this thread.Originally Posted by Ambulance Chaser
My top three tips:
1. Unless you know that you want to practice in a certain geographic area, attend the best law school that admitted you.
2. In law school, what you know is not as important as how you say it -- study model exam answers written by students (usually on file in the library).
3. After law school, what you know is not as important as who you know -- network as much as possible because you never know who will be in a position to give a positive reference on your behalf or tell you about a job opening.
The 'prestige' factor is perhaps the most repeated thread here. I had hoped to qualify for a top 15, but accept a lower ranking school that offered me cash, but I'll consider that more carefully.
Originally Posted by crazyquik
You're pretty sure the reasonable prudent man is a friendless tool who still lives with his mother.
Loved that one.
My memories of law school are generally pretty positive.Originally Posted by montecristo#4
Lots of poker and drinking first year.
Honed the golf game second and third year. Spent the winters playing Quake 2 and traveling to Foxwoods.
Highlight of my 3rd year was when my phone rang two weeks before fall exams:
"Hello, is Montecristo#4 there?"
"Yes, speaking."
"This is XXXXXX YYYYYYYY."
"Umm, okay." [Who is this guy?]
"I'm your Human Rights professor."
[Oh, ****!]
"If you don't come to class, I'm not going to be able to pass you."
Got a A- in that class. LOL.
Most people who attend law school don't know how to study, have relatively poor logical skills, and can't write worth a damn. If you're reasonably proficient at these things, the horror stories don't apply.
I have great study skills, am considered logical by engineers, and write exceptionally well, so I like what I hear here.
Huntsman, as regards your OP, have you considered finance? That's the route my richest Engineering friends took.Originally Posted by eg1
eg, I have, but I know too little about the opportunities in Finance to even pose a cogent question here. Philosophically, I'm not sure Finance is for me, and I'd hate to completely abandon engineering, which I do enjoy. From things I read, it seems as if sales is always involved somewhere, and I don't really have the temperment for that. I would like to know some more, though,
My ideals are still intact, but now they're tempered by a six figure loan amount.Originally Posted by DarkNWorn
For the record, I don't hate law school. For the most part, I also like my law professors. However, it's amazing to see how fast people lose their humanity here. A semi-normal, semi-sociable, semi-friendly entering student will turn into a complete self-absorbed, self-righteous, asshole by the end of the second year. I have friends who are graduate students of the other departments, and I can clearly see the difference. Not that they study any less, but they somehow manage to have a life and can hold a normal conversation about something else other than their work. In other words, they're normal.
Some law students still manage to have a normal life, but they're the exceptions, not the norms. The one common thread that I've been able to discern from this group is that they stay away from the school as much as they can. As for myself, I go to class, then straight home or to my gf's house (she's also a law student). I hang out with about a handful of law students, the rest of my group of friends are graduate students at the other schools. I can feel my blood pressure rising every time I enter the school. The most immediate impetus is usually from seeing the dark and grim faces of the other law students.
Man, you sound so much like you're talking about engineers. And, I might add, you sound a bit like me talking about my undergrad -- I used to say that the best part of my day was leaving the Uni for home.
Best,
Huntsman
