Stephen Strasburg

[Baron]

Originally Posted by BDC2823

I hate these inning/pitch limits. Guys are different and respond differently to the number of innings/pitches they throw. A guy with good mechanics can throw a whole hell of a lot for innings than a guy with bad mechanics. I'm not saying to go Kerry Wood on the guy, because that was beyond what a young hard throwing pitcher should go through, but limiting this guy or anyone else to some finite number is ridiculous in my book. Let the kid throw, monitor him, and have him tell the coaches how he's feeling. Alot of guys out there struggle and develop poor mechanics or bad habits by not getting enough use.

I know they didn't throw as hard or have so much junk back in the day, but if guys could put up the innings and number of pitches they did 30, 40, 50+ years ago, guys can throw more than 170 innings a year now. Halladay shouldn't be the exception to the rule.

Originally Posted by Slopho

Ugh!!! Come on guys there use to be a day when starters could go 11 innings. Jim Palmer went 11 innings once before he started an all star game. Nolan Ryan was right today's pitchers are pussies.

Survivor bias. For every hall of famer that had massive inning totals early in their career, there were dozens of guys that fell apart due to high workloads. Looking not so far back, I'm pretty sure Tommy Lasorda destroyed the arms of Fernando Valenzuela, Orel Hershiser and Ramon Martinez. There's lots of research out there now on the sensitivity of young arms, especially under the age of 25. If you can gradually ramp up workload up to that age, you greatly increase the likelihood of a long career. Then again, a lot of guys will break down no matter what you do, but it makes sense to do what you can to preserve a valuable asset.

 

[OldSchoolCharm]

Originally Posted by Baron

Survivor bias. For every hall of famer that had massive inning totals early in their career, there were dozens of guys that fell apart due to high workloads. Looking not so far back, I'm pretty sure Tommy Lasorda destroyed the arms of Fernando Valenzuela, Orel Hershiser and Ramon Martinez. There's lots of research out there now on the sensitivity of young arms, especially under the age of 25. If you can gradually ramp up workload up to that age, you greatly increase the likelihood of a long career. Then again, a lot of guys will break down no matter what you do, but it makes sense to do what you can to preserve a valuable asset.

wood is a good example of that.

 

[bcate3]

Originally Posted by Slopho

Ugh!!! Come on guys there use to be a day when starters could go 11 innings. Jim Palmer went 11 innings once before he started an all star game. Nolan Ryan was right today's pitchers are pussies.

Who gave up his first HR to Torre. Palmer threw a CG in the '66 WS against the Dodgers at the age of 21, but spent the next couple years in the minors battling arm injuries.

If you're going to praise the old school approach of letting starters throw more innings then you have to acknowledge that approach also led teams to break in young pitchers slowly through the bullpen, throwing in relief. That's how Ryan broke in. I suspect few old schoolers would support having a 20 year kid throw without a pitch count.

Strasburg is advanced in ability and control, but not in physical development. He's still growing and maturing. I would be wary to trust a 20 year old kid and a fledgling franchise with his development without some self-binding measures.

 

[OldSchoolCharm]

Originally Posted by bcate3

Who gave up his first HR to Torre. Palmer threw a CG in the '66 WS against the Dodgers at the age of 21, but spent the next couple years in the minors battling arm injuries.

If you're going to praise the old school approach of letting starters throw more innings then you have to acknowledge that approach also led teams to break in young pitchers slowly through the bullpen, throwing in relief. That's how Ryan broke in. I suspect few old schoolers would support having a 20 year kid throw without a pitch count.

Strasburg is advanced in ability and control, but not in physical development. He's still growing and maturing. I would be wary to trust a 20 year old kid and a fledgling franchise with his development without some self-binding measures.

any word on the nats getting oswalt? that would be a good mentor.

 

[bcate3]

Originally Posted by OldSchoolCharm

any word on the nats getting oswalt? that would be a good mentor.

Oswalt has apparently said that he would approve a trade with the Nats. They would have a helluva roation if they pulled that trade off and get Wang and Jordan Zimmerman back from injuries.

 

[OldSchoolCharm]

Originally Posted by bcate3

Oswalt has apparently said that he would approve a trade with the Nats. They would have a helluva roation if they pulled that trade off and get Wang and Jordan Zimmerman back from injuries.

if they got oswalt i think they would have a legit shot.

 

[Slopho]

Originally Posted by bcate3

Who gave up his first HR to Torre. Palmer threw a CG in the '66 WS against the Dodgers at the age of 21, but spent the next couple years in the minors battling arm injuries.

If you're going to praise the old school approach of letting starters throw more innings then you have to acknowledge that approach also led teams to break in young pitchers slowly through the bullpen, throwing in relief. That's how Ryan broke in. I suspect few old schoolers would support having a 20 year kid throw without a pitch count.

Strasburg is advanced in ability and control, but not in physical development. He's still growing and maturing. I would be wary to trust a 20 year old kid and a fledgling franchise with his development without some self-binding measures.

Old School pitchers were pussies too then. You need to come up ready to throw 250+ innings.

I read somewhere that younger and younger kids are having TJ done on their arms...Little League can be a *****.

 

[BDC2823]

Originally Posted by Baron

Survivor bias. For every hall of famer that had massive inning totals early in their career, there were dozens of guys that fell apart due to high workloads. Looking not so far back, I'm pretty sure Tommy Lasorda destroyed the arms of Fernando Valenzuela, Orel Hershiser and Ramon Martinez. There's lots of research out there now on the sensitivity of young arms, especially under the age of 25. If you can gradually ramp up workload up to that age, you greatly increase the likelihood of a long career. Then again, a lot of guys will break down no matter what you do, but it makes sense to do what you can to preserve a valuable asset.

I'm not saying to just let the guy throw as much as possible and burn himself out like Wood. I just don't think you can place a finite number on how many innings/pitches the guy can throw during the year. I wouldn't let the guy throw 130 pitches in a game or use him like Halladay, but to take it in stride and see how he's throwing and how many of those pitches are really stressful pitches. If need be, push back a few starts or have him miss a couple starts, but don't baby the guy.

Every pitcher is different and instead of putting a certain number of innings on a guy (like the Yankees with Joba), take it a day at a time and keep a close eye on his mechanics, how he's feeling, and how his pitches are working (i.e is he losing velocity, not getting as much movement on his offspeed pitches, etc. that can be a sign of fatigue).

I also say this as a Dodgers fan that cringes when he sees how much Torre uses some of his relievers. Some of those guys get no recovery time as they are in practically every game.

 

[Baron]

Originally Posted by BDC2823

I'm not saying to just let the guy throw as much as possible and burn himself out like Wood. I just don't think you can place a finite number on how many innings/pitches the guy can throw during the year. I wouldn't let the guy throw 130 pitches in a game or use him like Halladay, but to take it in stride and see how he's throwing and how many of those pitches are really stressful pitches. If need be, push back a few starts or have him miss a couple starts, but don't baby the guy.

Every pitcher is different and instead of putting a certain number of innings on a guy (like the Yankees with Joba), take it a day at a time and keep a close eye on his mechanics, how he's feeling, and how his pitches are working (i.e is he losing velocity, not getting as much movement on his offspeed pitches, etc. that can be a sign of fatigue).

I also say this as a Dodgers fan that cringes when he sees how much Torre uses some of his relievers. Some of those guys get no recovery time as they are in practically every game.

I agree. The smartest teams should have in house biomechanics guys that watch for things that indicate fatigue, like changes in arm slots or whatnot. I'm sure the Yankees and Red Sox do this already.

I'm a Dodger fan too - I think Torre might have killed Troncoso's career by the end of May this year. Maybe the Russian psychic gave it his blessing.

 

[BDC2823]

Originally Posted by Baron

I agree. The smartest teams should have in house biomechanics guys that watch for things that indicate fatigue, like changes in arm slots or whatnot. I'm sure the Yankees and Red Sox do this already.

I'm a Dodger fan too - I think Torre might have killed Troncoso's career by the end of May this year. Maybe the Russian psychic gave it his blessing.

Yeah, he ran Troncoso and Belisario into the ground last year and they aren't doing well this year. Torre's always been known for that though. This stupid divorce thing is killing us because we could use another starter and relief help. I don't want to ever see one of the Ortiz's pitch for the Dodgers again. I cringed whenever I saw them put into the game.

 

[Baron]

Plus they gave away Carlos Santana in the Casey Blake deal to save a little money, and it looks like they might have punted their draft pick this year by intentionally taking an unsignable player. It's excruciating. I have my fingers crossed for Mark Cuban to buy the team.

 

[BDC2823]

Yup. It definitely looks like they punted that first round pick. Very frustrating when they went deep into the postseason last year and really only need a few more pieces. Instead of getting better int he offseason, they don't do **** and I have no faith in them making a good deal or two at the deadline. Cuban would be good. Hell, almost anyone else besides McCourt would be good.

 

[bkk]

Originally Posted by Slopho

I read somewhere that younger and younger kids are having TJ done on their arms...Little League can be a *****.

Mostly cause dads don't have a clue how to coach the kids how to properly throw a ball, let alone a curve ball. Its not like kids need to know anything beyond changing speed of pitches and good location.

 

[Douglas]

well, that's the end of that.

 

[HRoi]

not ready to write him off. Tommy John isn't the equivalent of microfracture for a b-ball player...it seems like pitchers routinely come out of it even stronger than they were pre-surgery. the latest example is Josh Johnson