st crispins vs vass

[sstomcat]



Everybody has a right to their opinion, however I'm still waiting to hear why you think St Crispins are over priced.

Sure, I'm not going to duck the question. In my view few things determine the price - brand value, labor cost, economy of the state, quality of materials and price differential relative to competitors in the same band.

In terms of brand and based out of Vienna they are certainly not in the same league as other Viennese shoes makers like Materna, Maftei not to mention Rudolf sheer. Even RTW shoes from Materna(made in Austria) is priced just north of 1k. Maftei semi bespoke runs around 900 Euros granted they are made in Romania. I doubt how much business Saint Crispins get out of Vienna if any at all.

Labor cost in Romania is even less given the current state of affairs than Hungary where in Vass are made and the price differential is staggering. In terms of materials I do not own any Crispins so I have not put the shoe under a microscope to know the quality of the leathers but from several high resolution pictures they do not seem any better I'd say in fact inferior to Vass. Please do not be led astray by the high shine, antiquing or whatever you may call it..

In terms of handwork the outsole is machine unlike Vass a hallmark of a well made traditional shoe...Also it has been proven that a all stitched sole w/o wooden pegs is superior and also more time consuming.
To me some of the idiosyncrasies that you see in Vass screams hand made unlike the crispins which looks just too clean too much refined..

I can go on but these are my premises that driving my opinion.

 

[chogall]

1) Yes, manufacturers in different countries will have different production costs. And they all compete in a global market for premium RTW shoes. As such, it makes no sense to suggest that considerations of price and value can only take place as between manufacturers in the same country (if that is what you were suggesting by your "depending on country of manufacturing" comment. It is a valid consideration is explaining differences in price, no doubt, and those produced in developing countries will generally have cheaper labour costs.

2) Vass shoes are significantly less costly than standard EG, Lobb and G&G, particularly when purchased directly from Vass - which pretty much anyone in the world is able to do. If someone wants to pay a premium for immediate in-country delivery from a US re-seller that's fine (and those re-sellers are good peeps), but it doesn't alter the manufacturer's pricing structure for the purpose of comparison with that of other manufacturers.

3) Ask Vass owners what other shoes they own and you may have your answer as to who their competitors might be. I suspect that realistically, lines demarking competitors are not brightly drawn. For me, they would embrace the likes of the higher-end C&J and AS, up to standard EG and G&G and the like. I would not see them as a competitor to St. Crispin's simply because the price disparity is too great. I could have purchased three pairs of some of my Vass shoes (~$600 x3) for the near equivalent of one pair of St. Crispin's (~$1,700). Certainly you could buy any two pair of standard calf Vass and have change left over for the cost of a pair of St. Crispin's.

On the flip side, one could argue that UK makers and StC are way overpriced compare to their Central/Eastern European counterparts.

This is what makes St Crispin unique; they are Eastern European made but yet able to command UK pricing due to their distribution, customer service, etc.

Quality-wise, I've seen better but wont complain at the price and the last customization options available.

Overall, StC is less overpriced compare to the UK makers but I am willing to let them take my money.

 

[RogerP]

On the flip side, one could argue that UK makers and StC are way overpriced compare to their Central/Eastern European counterparts.

This is what makes St Crispin unique; they are Eastern European made but yet able to command UK pricing due to their distribution, customer service, etc.

Quality-wise, I've seen better but wont complain at the price and the last customization options available.

Overall, StC is less overpriced compare to the UK makers but I am willing to let them take my money.

Yes - St. C. does command pricing similar to the better UK makers - and I would say the quality is easily on par if not better (in the RTW context). In that regard, it is hard to argue that they are "grossly overpriced" within the context of a global market.

If the quality were poor, the designs uninspired, the customer service indifferent and the pricing high - well then you'd have a real argument as to gross over-pricing. But then you'd have to try to explain why they are succeeding in selling at that price globally. And more to the point, none of those factors are in play. The quality of construction, materials / design / customization / service are all on par or better than those of the UK makers with similar pricing. I can't see where St. C. is somehow obliged to sell at a lower price because their labor costs are less.

I let them take my money, too.

Turns out you can make shoes and make money.

Are there any RTW makers that you would place above St. C. in terms of quality?

 

[laufer]



2) Vass shoes are significantly less costly than standard EG, Lobb and G&G, particularly when purchased directly from Vass - which pretty much anyone in the world is able to do. 

That is no longer true for us in USA. I tried to purchase something directly from Vass, I was told I have to go through VASS authorized US retailer.

 

[justsayno]

Is Rezső turning away direct orders from US now?

 

[stevent]



That is no longer true for us in USA. I tried to purchase something directly from Vass, I was told I have to go through VASS authorized US retailer.

Damn I've been putting off a few pairs of Vass but was gonna order soon. I guess we all know who complained about this

 

[dddrees]

Sure, I'm not going to duck the question. In my view few things determine the price - brand value, labor cost, economy of the state, quality of materials and price differential relative to competitors in the same band.

In terms of brand and based out of Vienna they are certainly not in the same league as other Viennese shoes makers like Materna, Maftei not to mention Rudolf sheer. Even RTW shoes from Materna(made in Austria) is priced just north of 1k. Maftei semi bespoke runs around 900 Euros granted they are made in Romania. I doubt how much business Saint Crispins get out of Vienna if any at all.

Labor cost in Romania is even less given the current state of affairs than Hungary where in Vass are made and the price differential is staggering. In terms of materials I do not own any Crispins so I have not put the shoe under a microscope to know the quality of the leathers but from several high resolution pictures they do not seem any better I'd say in fact inferior to Vass. Please do not be led astray by the high shine, antiquing or whatever you may call it..

In terms of handwork the outsole is machine unlike Vass a hallmark of a well made traditional shoe...Also it has been proven that a all stitched sole w/o wooden pegs is superior and also more time consuming.
To me some of the idiosyncrasies that you see in Vass screams hand made unlike the crispins which looks just too clean too much refined..

I can go on but these are my premises that driving my opinion.

Thanks for sharing, and I can see now why you believe they are not worth the price they charge. You've made a good argument, however I can't say you've persuaded me to change my mind. Based on the other brands I own now and what I have seen so far I'm very pleased with what I have received from St Crispins so far.

 

[emptym]



Isn't the original statement referring to St Crispine not Vass?

I read it the other way - give the comments about not reflecting Hungarian tradition and such.  Vass is made in Hungary, St. Crispin's is not.

I can see how the confusion arose. On the one hand, he quoted RogerP on Vass. On the other, he specified that he was criticizing a Viennese company, which those familiar w/ the two companies would immediately recognize as St. C's.

 

[sstomcat]



Thanks for sharing, and I can see now why you believe they are not worth the price they charge. You've made a good argument, however I can't say you've persuaded me to change my mind.   Based on the other brands I own now and what I have seen so far I'm very pleased with what I have received from St Crispins so far.

Good people agree to disagree agreeably.

 

[JohnnyCrockett]



Is Rezső turning away direct orders from US now?

Damn I've been putting off a few pairs of Vass but was gonna order soon. I guess we all know who complained about this

I do not think this is correct.
I've worked with Rezso on two MTM orders in the past year, the first one was placed with him, in person, in Budapest and the other over phone/email as recently as last month. He was highly responsive, service was great, and the shoes are wonderful. No discussion of needing to go through a US retailer (do those even exist for Vass?).

 

[JohnnyCrockett]



3) Ask Vass owners what other shoes they own and you may have your answer as to who their competitors might be.  I suspect that realistically, lines demarking competitors are not brightly drawn.  For me, they would embrace the likes of the  higher-end C&J and AS, up to standard EG and G&G and the like.  I would not see them as a competitor to St. Crispin's simply because the price disparity is too great.  I could have purchased three pairs of some of my Vass shoes (~$600 x3) for the near equivalent of one pair of St. Crispin's (~$1,700).  Certainly you could buy any two pair of standard calf Vass and have change left over for the cost of a pair of St. Crispin's.

The thing that shouldn't be forgotten is that you can actually go to a Vass store (if you find yourself in Budapest, mind you) and try on 10-20 pairs of shoes until you find exactly the last, size, and style that fits you best. The service is incredible. They have a huge inventory at their main store, which is simply not the case for the EG or C&J "flagship" stores (London, Paris, NY) and certainly isn't the case for high end multi-brand retailers (Leffot, Leather Soul, the Armoury). This enables you to figure out exactly what you need (size and last) and exactly what you want (style, leather color). Many, many permutations are there to be seen, touched, and felt before you make an order.

Then you can place an MTO order at essentially zero (or actually zero? I forget) upcharge. You'll receive the shoes in 3-4 weeks. Cost to your front door (in the US) is around $700-800, including their gorgeous trees. Not inexpensive compared to what most people wear but this is downright cheap by SF standards.

EG MTO has a significant upcharge and takes 6-9 months IIRC. Good luck on them getting your request right, from what I understand.

 

[sstomcat]

Nothing can beat this.

 

[laufer]



I do not think this is correct.
I've worked with Rezso on two MTM orders in the past year, the first one was placed with him, in person, in Budapest and the other over phone/email as recently as last month. He was highly responsive, service was great, and the shoes are wonderful. No discussion of needing to go through a US retailer (do those even exist for Vass?).

Well Rezso turned me down on November 1. This is a quote from him "Also since we have retailers in the US, we don’t ship shoes directly to the US" Maybe it is because you have already established relationship with them.

 

[terrorsquad]



Well Rezso turned me down on November 1. This is a quote from him "Also since we have retailers in the US, we don’t ship shoes directly to the US" Maybe it is because you have already established relationship with them.

How much are the US retailers selling it for? You can always go via the Notch route. he is charging quite a reasonable price for Vass RTW and MTO.

 

[laufer]



How much are the US retailers selling it for? You can always go via the Notch route. he is charging quite a reasonable price for Vass RTW and MTO.

You know at this point I do not even care. There are other option available so I see no point to beg anyone to take my money.