St. Crispin's Appreciation Thread

[Patrick1053]

Have you tried Paolo Scafora? Low instep, some last does have relatively big toe box room (Door)

Wow those shoes look nice, but I have not given ou on St C yet. Thank you for the info though. I am sure I will get around to them eventually.

 

[DWFII]

Yup I definitely intend to have the last shaved down. I appreciate all the info so that I can figure out what needs to be made smaller.

I agree with @wurger --trying to get a fit long distance, esp. when the bona fide maker (the one who will actually make or oversee the making of the shoes) has not measured or evaluated your foot, is a fool's game.

Best advice is to send as many photos to the maker as possible and cross your fingers.

But don't hold your breath.

 

[Patrick1053]

I agree with @wurger --trying to get a fit long distance, esp. when the bona fide maker (the one who will actually make or oversee the making of the shoes) has not measured or evaluated your foot, is a fool's game.

Best advice is to send as many photos to the maker as possible and cross your fingers.

But don't hold your breath.

I agree it is not the best way, but it is all I can do right now. hopefully with a ton of pictures and description of fit then they can make it work.

 

[DWFII]

And FWIW...almost a non sequitur...I don't think that having a low instep is the issue. The issue is the long heel and how it relates to the girth measurements in the instep and the heel to ball measurement.

Your foot may be anomalous and another brand may fit you better, but when the instep/cone on a last is lowered, the long heel changes. And, sometimes, vice versa.

Similarly, when the heel-ball measurement is altered on the last, the long heel is altered.

A maker that builds on lasts that have lower cones may fit your foot better but again it is because...all other things being equal...the relationship between instep girths and LH measurements are different than on a last with a higher cone.

A comparison can be made (for limited purposes) between a sock and a shoe, even though one is leather and stiff. A sock doesn't care if your foot has a low instep or not. It is a tube...it can adapt to a high instep or a low instep, machts nicht. Same with a shoe--as long as the measurements are right and the relationships between those measurements are right the shoe will fit.

 

[Patrick1053]

And FWIW...almost a non sequitur...I don't think that having a low instep is the issue. The issue is the long heel and how it relates to the girth measurements in the instep and the heel to ball measurement.

Your foot may be anomalous and another brand may fit you better, but when the instep/cone on a last is lowered, the long heel changes. And, sometimes, vice versa.

Similarly, when the heel-ball measurement is altered on the last, the long heel is altered.

A maker that builds on lasts that have lower cones may fit your foot better but again it is because...all other things being equal...the relationship between instep girths and LH measurements are different than on a last with a higher cone.

A comparison can be made (for limited purposes) between a sock and a shoe, even though one is leather and stiff. A sock doesn't care if your foot has a low instep or not. It is a tube...it can adapt to a high instep or a low instep, machts nicht. Same with a shoe--as long as the measurements are right and the relationships between those measurements are right the shoe will fit.

Ok so would you stay the heel to ball measurement is off? or is it just the heel is cut too big? I think the ball of my foot is in the right spot, but any feedback helps.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

Well, from behind the treadline (medial ball joint to lateral ball joint forward)--what another poster called the 'vamp'.

But really, what I see in the shoe (if the photos are representative) is that the whole shoe is loose on the foot--the excess in the joint/vamp; the gaping at the sides. And I've got even money that even with the shoe laced up tight the heel slips like crazy. The facings...IMPO...should not ever close up tight, esp. if there is slack or excess in the mid foot / instep or the heel.

It doesn't do anyone any good at all to have a loose fit...anywhere. It allows the foot to slide inside the shoe, which will inevitably break-down the structure of the shoe. It prevents the shoe from supporting the foot as it is designed to do...which inevitably leads to a break-down of the structure of the foot.. It leads to 'clumsy' feet and premature and excessive wear.

I'm sure someone will take exception but I was asked for my opinion...as a maker...and there you have it.

I called it the Vamp. I wouldn't even know the medial collateral triangular etc etc ?.

The fit you are referring to, in your opinion the ideal fit, is my preferred fit. I want almost a wet suit feel from just before the toe joints to the heel hahaha.

Now saying that, a few Bespoke makers when I heard them assisting other customers asked a few questions. Those questions were, how does the shoe feel comfortable? Do you want it
loose here or there? Which would indicate that fit would be subjective or personal. Not that that would be "correct", but everyone's perception of an ideal fit could differentiate.

 

[DWFII]

Ok so would you stay the heel to ball measurement is off? or is it just the heel is cut too big? I think the ball of my foot is in the right spot, but any feedback helps.

Again, that's why I say that it is dern near impossible to evaluate a shoe without taking measurments of the foot or at least seeing, in person, the foot in the shoe. The heel seat may indeed be too wide...some folks have wide feet up front and narrow heels...and that too would affect the long heel and the fit over the instep.

 

[Patrick1053]

I called it the Vamp. I wouldn't even know the medial collateral triangular etc etc ?.

The fit you are referring to, in your opinion the ideal fit, is my preferred fit. I want almost a wet suit feel from just before the toe joints to the heel hahaha.

Now saying that, a few Bespoke makers when I heard them assisting other customers asked a few questions. Those questions were, how does the shoe feel comfortable? Do you want it
loose here or there? Which would indicate that fit would be subjective or personal. Not that that would be "correct", but everyone's perception of an ideal fit could differentiate.

ok, I am glad you said that. I thought I was the stupid one for thinking exactly what you just said.

 

[DWFII]

I called it the Vamp. I wouldn't even know the medial collateral triangular etc etc ?.

The fit you are referring to, in your opinion the ideal fit, is my preferred fit. I want almost a wet suit feel from just before the toe joints to the heel hahaha.

Now saying that, a few Bespoke makers when I heard them assisting other customers asked a few questions. Those questions were, how does the shoe feel comfortable? Do you want it
loose here or there? Which would indicate that fit would be subjective or personal. Not that that would be "correct", but everyone's perception of an ideal fit could differentiate.

All that's true and I applaud your recognition of a good fit. But having said that, I have always thought that it was ethically incumbant upon the shoemaker to 'educate' the customer--tell them the pros and cons of why looser here or tighter there might cause problems. both for the shoe and for the foot.

Then if the customer insists...get him to sign a letter of indemnification ...and make the shoes to his specs.50% of fit is in the head.

PS using the correct terminology makes for better understanding...esp. in a day and age where definitions are just a google look up away...and it is what a maker does. Talking in vague undefined, and undefinable, grunts doesn't help anyone .

 

[DWFII]

PS...the 'medial' (think 'middle) ball joint is where the large toe (first phalange) meets the metatarsal head on the inside of the foot.

The 'lateral' joint is the joint where the pinky meets the outside edge of the foot.

The 'treadline' is a imagined line that passes through all the phalangeal-metatarsal joints from the medial side of the foot to the lateral side of the foot

The 'plantar' surface is the ground side of the foot.

The 'dorsal' surface is where a fin would be if feet were fish.

'Girth' measurements are measurements taken around the circumference of the foot at specific places -usually distinct skeletal prominences.

The 'long heel' measurement is a girth measurement taken from back of the calcaneus (heel bone) to the middle cuniform (instep, surfer's knob, washerwoman's bump, etc.).

In my opinion, anyone giving advice to someone else about feet or fit (even if it be instinctively correct) should know what they are talking about and that means knowing these terms; and anyone asking for advice should know these terms (if only because we all have medial ball joints and so forth--it's not calculus, after all) and should take with a grain of salt any advice that does not recognize them.

I know that sounds pretty harsh but again, in this age of internet search engines, this knowledge is but a finger twist away...and knowledge is power.

 

[BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes]

using the correct terminology makes for better understanding...esp. in a day and age where definitions are just a google look up away...and it is what a maker does. Talking in vague undefined, and undefinable, grunts doesn't help anyone .

Definitely agree elucidation is much more beneficial, but the simplification, at the very least, allows for immediate association and identification ?.

Ok so would you stay the heel to ball measurement is off? or is it just the heel is cut too big? I think the ball of my foot is in the right spot, but any feedback helps.

Case in point.. This man is searching for a simplified method as to explaining what the issue is so that they can proceed towards a better fitting shoe ?, moreso when that explanation happens remotely.

 

[DWFII]

Definitely agree elucidation is much more beneficial, but the simplification, at the very least, allows for immediate association and identification ?.

Thing is the foot is one of the most architecturally complex forms in nature. Simple explanations are appropriate for simple problems and simpler (all too often incorrect) solutions--case in point.

God (and the devil) is in the details...always.

 

[Patrick1053]

PS...the 'medial' (think 'middle) ball joint is where the large toe ( first phalange) meets the metatarsal head on the inside of the foot.

The 'lateral' joint is the joint where the pinky meets the outside edge of the foot.

The 'treadline' is a imagined line that passses through all the phalangeal-metatarsal joints from the medial side of the foot to the lateral side of the foot

The 'plantar' surface is the ground side of the foot.

The 'dorsal' surface is where a fin would be if feet were fish.

'Girth' measurements are measurements taken around the circumference of the foot at specific places -usually distinct skeletal prominences.

The long heel measurement is a girth measurement taken from back of the calcaneus (heel bone) to the middle cuniform (instep , surfer's knob, washerwoman's bump, etc.).

In my opinion, anyone giving advice to someone else about feet or fit (even if it be instinctively correct) should know what they are talking about and that means knowing these terms; and anyone asking for advice should know these terms (if only because we all have medial joints and so forth...it's not calculus) and should take with a grain of salt any advice that does not recognize them.

I know that sounds pretty harsh but again, in this age of internet search engines, this knowledge is but a finger twist away...and knowledge is power.

Thank you that helps a lot. do you have an idea on how to correct the gaping on the sides? and why it is there even though there is little to no heel slip?

 

[Encore]

For SC lasts, do they have different instep?

 

[DWFII]

Again, I'd have to see/feel the foot and the shoe. It could be a simple as just being too loose over the instep and in the long heel measurement...if the shoe fit close to the foot as it should, where would there be enough excess to gape like that? Where would that excess come from, IOW?

As far as heel slippage is concerned..."none" is the correct answer, if the shoe is laced up snug. The back of the last is curved and the patterns that comprise the uppers (shoe) are curved (generally) to cup the heel. Why should there be any?