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St. Crispin's Appreciation Thread

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure...the tire probably.

    But what's your point? If you think that represents a deficiency in the leather, why are you wearing leather shoes?

    And/or why are you posting to a discussion forum that views (or pretends to view) leather as a desirable material for its own sake?
     
  2. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

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    Just for the record, I defended them because I've read a few academic literature reviews on Google Scholar saying otherwise. Ones that did lab tests. I don't put Vibrams on my leather soles because I ride a cab whenever it rains, so it's a moot point. I also just don't like how Topys look, but that's an aesthetic choice. It's not because I'm being paid by Vibram or Topy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  3. Ecstasy

    Ecstasy Well-Known Member

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    I wear leather shoes with rubber soles. Please don't assume.

    "A discussion forum that views leather as a desirable material for its own sake?" Desired for use in certain situations only. There is no material that is fit for every use. I am saying it is undesirable as a material for the sole, at least in terms of functionality.

    "And/or why are you posting..." Sounds like you do not welcome anyone with opinions that differ from your worldview.

    Edit: You are saying that the tyre is easier to cut than leather?
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  4. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Quote:Well said.
     
  5. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't referring to you. I hope you'll forgive me if I say I didn't even have you in mind. FWIW, I thought your contributions were objective and positive-- they weren't just obsequious little snippets of half formed reasons and unexplored feelings.

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  6. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I say again...make the case for leather...especially relative to synthetics. There is none...unless you get into the realms of refinement, excellence, quality, feel, attention to detail, care, the human touch, Traditions, best practices--the sometimes ineffable. Aspects that we often cannot quantify. The things that separate "the finer things in life" from the mundane.

    The whole issue of "knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing" is that it serves to drag everything that is good or exceptional or exemplary down to the level of commonplace; easily accessible without any undue effort to understand or to seek excellence yourownself--just pay for what others hype/market as "excellence." It's a de facto dumbing down..of your own reasoning capacities, if nothing else. A politically and socially correct leveling to the lowest common denominator.

    If your priorities are shoes that are as tough as a tire...you should indeed look elsewhere. You've convincingly made the case for shoes made entirely of rubber. Leather is not for you. If your priorities are waterproof, plastic or naugahyde is your thing...leather is not.

    If you accept and value leather for what it is...if you understand what it is...then Topy and Danite and the like, are almost an insult simply because they are the antithesis of everything leather is and why it is valued.

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  7. VRaivio

    VRaivio Well-Known Member

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    Crepe and Ridgeway soles have the best traction on ice. Dainite is nice on rainy days, but it's deadly slippery on ice. Commando soles are excellent in forests or grassy terrains, but snow packs into the grooves quickly and the buggers become deadly. There is no single solution to rule them all.
     
  8. Ecstasy

    Ecstasy Well-Known Member

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    In so many words, are you saying that there is no objective justification for the use of leather on the outsole?
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion. Your observations on the merits of the various materials are largely in accord with my own, save that I have found Dainite to be pretty good on ice and markedly superior in grip to smooth, wet leather.
     
  10. Mute

    Mute Well-Known Member

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    This mirrors my own experience as well.
     
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how you get from my post to mifune about breathability to that conclusion.

    What I am saying about rubber and plastic is that if you understand the materials and the way they work together; if you understand and value leather for what it is; and if you value being logically consistent and objective, then every argument you can make, every rationale that you come up with for rubber outsoles is equally a valid argument for rubber uppers.

    We don't value leather for the characteristics that Topy and Danite and naugahyde bring to the table and, yet, their whole raison d'etre is as a replacement for leather.

    I didn't believe this when I first started as a boot and shoemaker but I have learned...here, if nowhere else...that there is a certain percentage of the population for whom substance (as opposed to "style") is irrelevant; for whom nuance and the concept of excellence is fundamentally incomprehensible. Their priorities lay elsewhere. They "know the cost of everything and the value of nothing" and there is little anyone can do to effect the kind of sea-change in attitude that would open their eyes.

    At the same time there is a percentage of the population that revel in learning. That actively seek to understand...at every level. And there is little anyone can do to discourage them.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Ecstasy

    Ecstasy Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Not every argument for rubber outsole will stand for rubber uppers. For instance, if I said rubber provides good traction, it would only stand as a viable argument for the outsole and not the upper. Agree?

    I know you have lots of experience with the craft, and I respect that. So please don't make this personal. My interest in this is only in the argument, not the person. As far as your argument goes, I am only disputing the posts I quoted, not the rest of what you said. Honestly, you write a lot to make a point, so I didn't have time to read every post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
  13. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Cheers. And I am more that willing to accept that you are sharing your actual experiences and neither being blinded by marketing hype nor otherwise dissembling in aid of some deeply nefarious but yet completely unspecified agenda. [​IMG]
     
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    You're right...so let me amend my statement--"every argument you can make about the durability and waterproof qualities of rubber is an equally valid reason for choosing rubber rather than leather as an upper." That said, even the argument regarding traction is really about the functionality and utility of rubber versus leather in wet conditions. Either way it completely ignores and misunderstands the nature of leather and the reasons it is valued despite being non-durable goods.

    The answer to the second point is simple--if you're not interested in reading a post of mine, don't respond to it. Don't quote it, don't pretend to understand what was said.

    You're not alone in this--most of the people here who don't have any real life experience with shoes, other than wearing and bragging about how much they paid for them...much less insights into shoe making materials or techniques...are not interested in reading anything that would disturb their preconceptions.

    As for me, I am not of the Twit(ter) generation. I don't have a short attention span. I don't necessarily look for easy, quick and dirty, explanations--explanations that I don't have to work or pay for. I don't mind exercising and even stretching my mind on occasion. I can follow a train of thought beyond 144 characters.

    I understand the point about not making it personal and just following the argument...but I try to respect people enough that if I'm going to respond to them I'll usually re-read their posts, in entirety, several times. My philosophy is that if you want respect you have to give it.

    --
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2014
    5 people like this.
  15. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Well-Known Member

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    I love your long posts, they are very poetic.
     
    2 people like this.
  16. DWFII

    DWFII Well-Known Member

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    Oh, now you're just embarrassing me.

    :cheers:
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. thelonius

    thelonius Well-Known Member

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    Of course you're right. The shoe/boot is a multi-functional object. Different parts of it serve different purposes. The requirements of the sole, and that again under different conditions, are different from those of the uppers, for example. No-one is insisting on using leather for the laces, for example, are they (or though some do prefer this kind)? In similar vain, leather is choice for the uppers because of its breathability and its beauty. But under icy/snowy conditions, other synthetic materials may have better characteristics of grip than leather soles (this is a moot point - moot in the Oxford dictionary sense, and not the US sense of the term, that's to say, arguable). Has anyone tried recently wearing all-rubber boots ? They're called Wellies where I come from. Not something you'd want to do for long. But a commando sole with a leather upper, no problem.

    I love your short posts, they're so ironic.
     
  18. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Anyone care to share their thoughts on the model pictured below? Kind of an interesting take on a shell PTB. I'm contemplating something similar in calf - I think it would make a sleek and different dressy/casual shoe. Trying also to envision how it would look with a brogued captoe.


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  19. wurger

    wurger Well-Known Member

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    To keep it simple, I like the feel of leather on my feet, the looks of leather patterned uppers; and the durability of leather topy gives while not making my dress shoe soles look thick.

    Topy stops sole been slippery when they are new on tiled footpath, but they can be rather slippery during wet weather, only some pairs, not all of them. So the main reason for me is durability, not non-slippery.
     
  20. SoGent

    SoGent Well-Known Member

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    no cap toe . . . . just like that. it's clean & let's St C quality do the talkin
     
    1 person likes this.

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