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Shawl Lapel

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Thanks man. The toe seam is indeed hidden which is different from the 633S which is a hand sewn moc toe. If you're referring to the black hatch grain model from a few pages back that is the same as mine with the hidden toe seam.
Sorry I should have included the picture :p
Your pair looks like these to my eye: https://www.styleforum.net/threads/st-crispins-appreciation-thread.257353/page-509#lg=attachment1386124&slide=0

And I was curious if the hidden seam was a personal preference over no seam. It would seem if you wanted no seam you'd forgo it as opposed to opting for hidden? Just curious :)
 

KPDarb

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Sorry I should have included the picture :p
Your pair looks like these to my eye: https://www.styleforum.net/threads/st-crispins-appreciation-thread.257353/page-509#lg=attachment1386124&slide=0

And I was curious if the hidden seam was a personal preference over no seam. It would seem if you wanted no seam you'd forgo it as opposed to opting for hidden? Just curious :)
Ah I see what you mean. Those are the 633S which eliminates the toe seam although with shell id opt for the same configuration (plus they look awesome). I prefer to have the reverse seam as it adds an bit of underlying complexity to the style. It wasn't a decision based on an unfavorable opinion of one vs. another, its only because I prefer that style. Another difference between the two, the facings on 633S are a separate piece stitched to the upper vs the 633 which is a single piece albeit with added stitching (if you look just below the eyelets).
 

DWFII

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makes me wonder ... as much as i appreciate the art and craftsmanship of shoemaking. As each foot is so different, why haven't any shoemaker that offers personal last utilise technology like 3D modelling to obtain the exact measurement of a client's foot?
A good fit isn't a surface fit. IOW, you might be able to make a shoe to a plaster cast with 3D modeling technology but even if the plaster cast is of the foot in question, the final shoe almost invariably fall short of a good fit.

At the most basic, a shoemaker takes into consideration retained water, fat, temper,skeletal and ligamental structure and the muscular rigidity and flexibility of the actual foot, every time he wraps the tape measure.

I do not believe that any 3D technology can even come close. Various bright eyed, eager and apparently next-step-in-the-evolution-of-man intellects have been trying for the last 30-40 years and none of have been able to pull it off even with big money behind them.

also on the other hand, wouldn't the pattern of the shoe also changes if its made out of someone's personal last. Wouldn't this give rise to a slightly different toe shape or length etc?...
Yes.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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A good fit isn't a surface fit. IOW, you might be able to make a shoe to a plaster cast with 3D modeling technology but even if the plaster cast is of the foot in question, the final shoe almost invariably fall short of a good fit.

At the most basic, a shoemaker takes into consideration retained water, fat, temper,skeletal and ligamental structure and the muscular rigidity and flexibility of the actual foot, every time he wraps the tape measure.

I do not believe that any 3D technology can even come close. Various bright eyed, eager and apparently next-step-in-the-evolution-of-man intellects have been trying for the last 30-40 years and none of have been able to pull it off even with big money behind them.



Yes.
Seems to me then that every shoemaker is already endowed with all the technology necessary to provide a proper fit. Eyes & hands. Thus far, nothing has been created to surpass, much less replicate, those 4 pieces of technology.
 

acapaca

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The problem with that line of argument, as I see it, is that it implies the shoemaker -- and I think we're talking more about a typical MTM experience here than we are full-on bespoke -- has a large number of options at his disposal, including tiny and 'near-as-nevermind' imperceptible adjustments. I have not observed that to be the case, either in my own experiences or in any of those I've read about. Instead, the adjustments seem to be 'rougher' in scale, and in a more limited range.

Now, I could be wrong about all that, or even if I'm right, one might counter that the good maker intuitively accounts for all these tiny factors even when in the end deciding on a few simple or crude adjustments. Okay, fine. But if that's the case, then I'd imagine that same good maker might also learn how to better interpret a scan or mold.

I am admittedly an absolute novice at all this, but I also admit to being a bit amused, or even charmed, at how imprecise the whole thing seems. The tracing of the outline on paper, the reliance on a handful of measurements with fabric tape. I once saw a picture of a Japanese maker, Fukuda perhaps, using a little caliper device to measure the height of the ball of the foot, and I thought -- whoa, technology! Except, really a comparatively crude technology, in the big picture.

I'd be more persuaded by the argument that molds don't work because they capture the static foot and the shoe needs to think about a lot more than the static foot...if there weren't so many stories, like the ones recently in this thread, of makers having a hard time even fitting the static foot, much less one in motion.
 

wurger

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A good fit isn't a surface fit. IOW, you might be able to make a shoe to a plaster cast with 3D modeling technology but even if the plaster cast is of the foot in question, the final shoe almost invariably fall short of a good fit.

At the most basic, a shoemaker takes into consideration retained water, fat, temper,skeletal and ligamental structure and the muscular rigidity and flexibility of the actual foot, every time he wraps the tape measure.

I do not believe that any 3D technology can even come close. Various bright eyed, eager and apparently next-step-in-the-evolution-of-man intellects have been trying for the last 30-40 years and none of have been able to pull it off even with big money behind them.



Yes.
I honestly do believe 3D will work with big data machine learning, except no one would be interested in buying endproduct.

Let's look at how a bespoke tailor or shoemaker works: you are not just buying the end product, you are buying the experience of interacting with a person. From your initial consultation of measurement and designs, to the multiple fittings, a bit of small talk, have a few drinks etc, ultimately a personal relationship.

For any machine learning AI to work, it needs a large data base to learn from, except the AI engineers are not shoemakers or tailors. In theory, you can ask it to measure 1000 different feets, and ask DWFII to measure the same 1000 different feets, it will learn how DWFII measure it and get a result close to his ones; then from how he translates your feet measurement to your dress shoe lasts, boots last etc, it can learn from that to generate last with certain algorithms. Say if this is done, and a good result is achieved, even if the machine is given to DWFII free of charge to use, I don't think he will use it. Firstly, it's no better than what he can achieve, unless he is measuring someone after a few drinks; secondly, it diminshes the client interaction experience, reducing the value on the notion of handmade bespoke; thirdly, if one relies on a machine all the time, one will become rusty with the original eyeball & hands skill, degrading the original art.

So now the designer needs to find a buyer, the problem is that the machine learning is done on one bespoke maker's measurements, so it's uselss to another.

Highend bespoke makers have all of their costs built into the final price, if their costs go up, they can just up their price, they don't need to cut cost. While I am sure Hermes can afford R&D into such a machine; it doesn't add any value to their service and products.

If we look at the start up bespoke makers, they certainly won't have the capital to buy those machines.

In the RTW and MTO retail environments, while the 3D scanner can measure one's feet and recommend what size and last is best for them, an experienced staff can do that with a brannock device already.

This is my take on how 3D AI won't be getting better in area of bespoke clothing and shoes any time soon.
 

rdaws

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A few notes on my St. Crispin's fitting experiences in case they'll help anyone going through the process. .... But had I done one more trial shoe at a cost of 150 euro and a few weeks time, I probably wouldn't need to do this.
Appreciate the insight. I’m waiting for my first trial pair to arrive, and it’s going to be pretty close to the standard last. Your perspective is helpful, I’m tired of spending a fortune on shoes that don’t fit right!
 

Alan Bee

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