Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by medtech_expat, Jul 22, 2011.
Just curious about this statement, because I think Saint Crispin's say it's hand welted, and not "100% handmade claim". As far as my little understanding of shoes, their "Genuine hand welted shoes" claim refers to how they stretch the leather over the last by hand and welting it right?
Feel free to correct/educate me if I'm mistaken with some terms. Regardless, handmade or machine-made, I'm a fan of their style and comfort anyway.
^ That's right, welting and sewing on the outsole are two different operations. If St. Crispin's claim hand welted, then they would be well within their rights to, but they are not fully hand made. Does anyone know if they hand-click their uppers too?
Technically speaking, hand welted shoes could be machine lasted and stay within the 'hand welted' claim.
Resoling using the existing welt holes would have to be hand sewn and preserves the structural integrity of the welt, as oppose to, machine stitch a new sole on and put more holes and weakens the welts.
And the language is unclear as to re-welting is included in the fee.
Lasting, welting and sewing out sole all belongs to the task of the Maker, AFAIK.
Their Clicker does hand click the uppers.
Thanks chogall, that's great invoice. On a plus side, I think I have enough shoes that I'll never need more than a single resole
My shoes have arrived and all I can say is wow!
More pictures and a full update later
To my knowledge no shoe is fully handmade these days if you exclude the use of a simple sewing machine as all uppers are stitched together with sewing machines, are they not?
I think focusing too much on the tools used takes away from the more important thinking as to what is the value of the end results.
What do we know about the quantitative differences between the handstitched welt to outsole connection and the machine stitched which St. Crispin's uses. This would be my question.
Uppers are usually closed by seeing machines as those stitches are permanent.
Welt will be damaged during resoling for machine stitched outsoles. Not rocket science. Unless you find someone to hand stitch a new sole through existing holes on the welt.
An absurd question which naively fails to comprehend that not everything is quantifiable. In order to accurately measure ANY differences one would need to take account of a spectrum of variables and that isn't going to be possible through everyday wear.
Stirling. I completely disagree that the question is in any way naive. As, a matter of fact I specifically asked the question the way I did because I already know the answer. It is you who is apparently naive in thinking that I haven't enough knowledge, or ability to deductively reason, to not already know the answer. But I'll excuse your condescending attitude yet again in the interest of healthy debate and learning.
The answer is that the life of the outsole, and it's attachment to the welt is not inherently stronger via hand stitching or machine stitching when the original shoe is created. When resoling there is indeed a difference (As Chogall mentions above) as unless a resole is handstitched through the holes in the welt left from the original sole there would indeed be more holes left in the material. Which anyone could see would be a compromise.
So, once again I'll ask the same basic question, but will rephrase in a less sophisticated was so as to make no mistake of what I am looking for.
What experts here can state with any degree of professional opinion that the machine stitched welt to outsole method used by St. Crispin is inferior in performance to handstitched, and why.
As to whether or not one can call a St. Crispin shoe 'entirely handmade' I'll leave that debate up to those who wish to have it. As I don't care. Personally, I think artisans/makers should embrace tools and technologies that allow them to produce the best quality product. If I, as an architect, were still attempting to produce construction drawings with a quill pen on vellum I can assure you that I would not be able to produce an appropriate quality of product.
Today I compared two of the best shoes I have to admit that the bevelled waist on the St Crispin feels much better on my feet then the JL. I have several pairs of EG which I would say are equally as good but the St Crispin feels the best fit.
StC indeed are very comfortable. And John Lobb lasts are the worst. I don't know who they make em for. Always either too big, too short, too low, high, etc
Have you ever considered that it might be YOUR feet that just don't fit? Maybe they make em for everyone else but you.
Anyway JL7000 fits me like a dream. Almost.
By the way, that museum leather is unparallelled!!!
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