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An Acute Style

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Exactly. The average guy likes something without knowing why he likes it. I think one of the fallacies here is overemphasis on minute stylistic differences. "Joe Schmoe" is worried about fitting in with his mall-shopping buddies, not swelled seam edges on a 3.7564329" lapel.
The average guy also dislikes things without knowing why he dislikes it. The details matter. There is only so far you can push Joe's sensibilities away from his mall shopping buddies before he notices a line has been crossed consciously or not.

I think most of us, for the most part, are not really concerned with Joe. I want S&M to be successful and all, but I also want dope gear by my standards. I want 1/4" stitching. Later for what Joe wants. I'll let S&M sort that out. They know their customer base base better than I, but I at least want S&M to know how I feel. For all, I know, I am Joe Schmoe, soooo...do what I say S&M.
 

doodledoc

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@spiermackay, how do you clean/wash the cotton suit? Can I wash it in the washing machine? I need to shrink it a little.
 

spiermackay

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The average guy also dislikes things without knowing why he dislikes it. The details matter. There is only so far you can push Joe's sensibilities away from his mall shopping buddies before he notices a line has been crossed consciously or not.

I think most of us, for the most part, are not really concerned with Joe. I want S&M to be successful and all, but I also want dope gear by my standards. I want 1/4" stitching. Later for what Joe wants. I'll let S&M sort that out. They know their customer base base better than I, but I at least want S&M to know how I feel. For all, I know, I am Joe Schmoe, soooo...do what I say S&M.
The big things they notice. Lapel size. 3 roll 2 (often confused for a 3 button) spalla style shoulder (thinking its a sewing defect) and patch pockets. Small details like a demi luna stitch on the pocket, sous bras, real horn buttons, quality of lining (bemberg in our case), quarter opening, button stance and yes the width of the pick stitch all go over most heads. They stongly take the cues from mainstream media and what is offered in the stores they are comfortable with.

For example, J.Crew was/is a media darling AND easily accessible, so for a long time it was the default authority for a lot of guys. If they are doing skinny lapels, then that must be trendy and thats what I want.

That said, companies like Suitsupply are helping a lot in changing tastes and perceptions. Their European roots and again immence media exposure makes them another brand that carries a lot of influence.

At our size we just have to play the game, not make the rules. Our model demands us to play a volume game and to move a good amount of volume you have to cater to the tastes of the mass market. We do that. But we like to experiment too and see where we can push North American tastes. And to do that out of Toronto is a pretty big challenge as anyone living here can attest to.
 

spiermackay

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@spiermackay, how do you clean/wash the cotton suit? Can I wash it in the washing machine? I need to shrink it a little.
You can was the trousers in cold and hang to dry.

The jacket has to be dry cleaned. The canvas inside will get ruined if you machine wash it.
 

SJR3

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Small details like a demi luna stitch
What is that?

And I'm super thankful you guys are willing to experiment a bit. I feel extremely lucky that I was able to grab a couple suits in my size in the Neapolitan cut before they were gone. I never thought such suits would be available at this price point. The style and details are almost exactly what I'm after in a suit, and previously I had to pay 2-3x the price and do MTM to get a similar end result... and I'm still happier with the Spier OTR suits.
 

doodledoc

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You can was the trousers in cold and hang to dry.

The jacket has to be dry cleaned. The canvas inside will get ruined if you machine wash it.
Which part is canvas? Since it's cotton, I don't want to have to dry clean it often.
 

spiermackay

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Which part is canvas? Since it's cotton, I don't want to have to dry clean it often.
The chest of the jacket has canvas in it. Don't dry clean unless it actually gets soiled. If needed, just have it steam pressed.
 

Spaghettimatt

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ce.
At our size we just have to play the game, not make the rules. Our model demands us to play a volume game and to move a good amount of volume you have to cater to the tastes of the mass market. We do that. But we like to experiment too and see where we can push North American tastes. And to do that out of Toronto is a pretty big challenge as anyone living here can attest to.
Curious if you could say more about this? I have my theories... wondering if you think Toronto is a safe or conservative place vis-a-vis NYC, LA, etc...
 

spiermackay

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Curious if you could say more about this? I have my theories... wondering if you think Toronto is a safe or conservative place vis-a-vis NYC, LA, etc...
From our experience, it is safe and conservative. Anything outside convention is a very difficult sell. Seasonal fabrics are especially difficult. Suits outside blue and gray are almost non-existent. That is at our pricepoint and the majority of customers that we have. I don't know how things are at the higher end of the market in the city. We're ok as we sell online and can ship all over North America, and hopefully open up to Europe as well soon, we can try some Non-conventional things.
 

Spaghettimatt

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From our experience, it is safe and conservative. Anything outside convention is a very difficult sell. Seasonal fabrics are especially difficult. Suits outside blue and gray are almost non-existent. That is at our pricepoint and the majority of customers that we have. I don't know how things are at the higher end of the market in the city. We're ok as we sell online and can ship all over North America, and hopefully open up to Europe as well soon, we can try some Non-conventional things.

Yeah that has been my frustrating experience with the city.
 

Spex

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(Late to the party responding to some of these). Some thoughts on style, trends and what I think S&M should consider.

I think the lapel width now (size 38 here) is the widest I'd ever go at this point. I'd actually prefer a 3" width rather than 3.5". Sure this isn't 'fashionable' but it's what the masses want. I'd hope that if customers are requesting slightly slimmer lapels that you'd do a test run on them.

Additionally, I'd like to see a sport coat without patch pockets. Switch up the fabric and it doesn't look like an orphaned suit jacket. I get more odd stares and 'what is wrong with your jacket' from my patch pockets than anything else. Additionally, being a short guy they make me look even shorter than I am. Here is hoping.
I don't think wider lapels are "fashionable", but quite the opposite (I think that's what's being said here). I think a lot of the things that forum members prize are like a reaction against whatever is either trendy or common. I've said it before, I think the safest thing to do is to have lapels that are neither slim nor wide, which means ignoring any actual measurement and just having them hit that 1/2 way point between lapel edge and shoulder. I think S&Ms more average customers wouldn't give it a 2nd thought and I'd think that forum members would view it as classic as well.

I think other styles of pockets would certainly work as long as the fabric is 100% not suiting fabric. I suppose flapped pockets that could be tucked in to look jetted would be the safest bet.

Just wanted to share a pick of the Neapolitan fit that I have. It sucks that there seems to be so much hate for the gorge height, and that it's a hard sell. I think it looks great.View attachment 823428
The creeping lapel gorge seems like recent trend. Maybe I'm so old that I actually remember the lower gorges of the 80s, and that's not something that I think should come back, but just like my comment above I think it shouldn't go to the opposite extreme of moving from the chest to being on the shoulder. I did an extensive search and I can't find any other era where gorges were so high, leading me to conclude that this is a current "trend", and one that I always thought looks weird when taken to an extreme. I'm not sure who decided to move them up and why. Having said that, I haven't seen these Neapolitan suits in person, so the height might be fine on those.

This suits looks great in the first two photos, but for my personal taste the last one looks like it could use some shoulder padding to accommodate what appears to be sloping shoulders. Maybe it's something about the angle of the photo. Having the softest, least padded shoulders is yet another forum concern that I think sometimes go too far (not saying it's the case here).

I think there is good advice in the article below:
https://parisiangentleman.co.uk/2016/10/17/q-a-with-pg-editors-is-an-unstructured-or-structured-shoulder-right-for-me/

And here is an extreme case:
http://dirnelli.tumblr.com/post/152664355670/as-i-am-often-asked-for-my-views-on-natural

Just food for thought. Oh yeah...and finally, a chocolate brown hopsack or fresco jacket would be the 2nd more useful jacket after a navy sport coat, IMHO.
 

doodledoc

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I don't think wider lapels are "fashionable", but quite the opposite (I think that's what's being said here). I think a lot of the things that forum members prize are like a reaction against whatever is either trendy or common. I've said it before, I think the safest thing to do is to have lapels that are neither slim nor wide, which means ignoring any actual measurement and just having them hit that 1/2 way point between lapel edge and shoulder. I think S&Ms more average customers wouldn't give it a 2nd thought and I'd think that forum members would view it as classic as well.
S&M's lapels are still skinny in my opinion. They don't even hit 1/2 way.

 

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