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ksinc

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The button has been discussed. It is not non-functional, there is a loop on the opposite lapel of the sweater which allows closing the cardigan up higher than just using the main, larger buttons.
Thank you - Well, it's gone now! I looked for a loop under the collar. Never found it.
 

MrFingers

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MrFingers - very nice jackets - I am anxious to try the unstructured and uncanvassed sport coat I have on order and hope I look as relaxed and comfortable as you do in Photo #2 in softer construction once I get the correct sizing.
Which one are you referring to? The one in my picture is the guabello hopsack from last year. It’s still half canvas although very lightweight indeed
 

masernaut

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Thank you - Well, it's gone now! I looked for a loop under the collar. Never found it.
Honestly, no big deal removing it. It's a pain trying to fit that button into the tiny loop.
 

ksinc

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Ebichuman

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The button has been discussed. It is not non-functional, there is a loop on the opposite lapel of the sweater which allows closing the cardigan up higher than just using the main, larger buttons.

Loop can be seen here:
View attachment 1745049
There is a loop, indeed but it’s about half the size of the button. No chance of using it.
 

chiggyv

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I'm just gonna chime in that it's better to split new cuts as separate models.

Because customers who are used to old cuts and comfortable with it, will be in for a rude shock when we realize that our new purchase doesn't fit the same.

The member who posted that I was SOL on my MTO order was correct. I have reached out to S&M and was informed that the cut was adjusted with fit differing from garment to garment.

I have also resigned to my fate that I have paid extra for poorer fitting item and will probably be avoiding RTW/MTO again. Karma from cheating on my bespoke tailor.
Personally, I don't think the issue is really about the armholes themselves. Spier has always experimented with items, to the point that I avoid a first year item knowing it will change (usually for the better) over time. I imagine testing items in the market provides some savings in product development leading to the prices we all enjoy.

The true problem is that the company now has multiple seasons under their belt, resulting in one model that fits multiple different ways. You see this in the sport coats, chinos, sweaters, longsleeve polos, 5 pocket cords, etc. It's really tough to purchase things online when there's no certainty in what fit you'll receive as your MTO experience reflects.
 

wilcthree

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Again raised arm hole doesn't equal to restricted upper body movement.Spier just couldn't do a proper higher arm hole.And breast pockets also went up with the higher arm holes, which shouldn't have happened.A failed experiment.
This. It's less about the armholes being raised than it is about the execution of said raised armholes. There is large agreement that raised armholes are a good thing. But it is the HOW, the way in which they're raised, that's causing issues. I wrote the below back in November 2021 when discussing this issue:

Was reading about higher armholes, construction, drape through the chest, restriction, etc., etc… One thing that stuck out to me is that if the armhole is raised or high, then there needs to be extra room/wideness on the sides of the armholes, that is in the chest and rear shoulder blades, for it to allow true ease of movement and no restriction. I wonder if SM accounted for this when constructing the new armhole configuration, as I often experience restriction/tension in the side of chest and upper bicep area.

I think this is the crux of the issue, that the armholes were raised without them being cut to allow for adequate room/wideness on the sides of the armholes, that is in the chest and rear shoulder blades. I say this because most of the issues with the FW '21 new raised armhole iteration involve restriction in those two areas, not under the armpit directly. I also agree with @chiggyv 's assessment that this is part and parcel of Spier's experiment and will get worked out over time. Yes, this does complicate things a bit (i.e., "multiple seasons under their belt, resulting in one model that fits multiple different ways"), but I imagine that from a 30,000 ft. view, this experiment has resulted in useful data for Spier.
 

dangaa

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It's really tough to purchase things online when there's no certainty in what fit you'll receive as your MTO experience reflects.
Playing devil's advocate here but I'm not sure there is an easy way to catalog or communicate the changes to each cut over time without over-complicating the purchase process online.

I'm probably in a small subset of users that catalogs every jacket I have purchased but even so I've never considered capturing the exact changes (known or otherwise perceived) between each release.

Is the expectation then that a customer's entire purchase history (including jacket/shirt/trouser cut details) be compared against new MTO orders and the user is alerted via prompt if a new or different block is in place? I can see a whole host of issues as a result on the programming side of things.

This may not be as critical for RTW due to their return process but International buyers may argue differently.

Additionally, just stating that the arm hole is raised is obviously not enough. Without releasing proprietary block diagrams to increase transparency on the actual changes how is that information better communicated?

I've held off jacket purchases this year due to the ongoing issue but pulled the trigger recently on a DB with the current sale. If the fit is overly constricting (as reported) then back it goes.
 

chiggyv

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Playing devil's advocate here but I'm not sure there is an easy way to catalog or communicate the changes to each cut over time without over-complicating the purchase process online.

I'm probably in a small subset of users that catalogs every jacket I have purchased but even so I've never considered capturing the exact changes (known or otherwise perceived) between each release.

Is the expectation then that a customer's entire purchase history (including jacket/shirt/trouser cut details) be compared against new MTO orders and the user is alerted via prompt if a new or different block is in place? I can see a whole host of issues as a result on the programming side of things.

This may not be as critical for RTW due to their return process but International buyers may argue differently.

Additionally, just stating that the arm hole is raised is obviously not enough. Without releasing proprietary block diagrams to increase transparency on the actual changes how is that information better communicated?

I've held off jacket purchases this year due to the ongoing issue but pulled the trigger recently on a DB with the current sale. If the fit is overly constricting (as reported) then back it goes.
I agree that it does get logistically complicated. I'm not a regular sportcoat buyer but for some of the other items I mentioned they should be maintaining historical sizing carts or noting historical changes if they're happening this often.

Fact is that everyone on this thread suffers from a selection bias by being here. If I didn't follow this thread recieving a FW21 sportcoat with the changed armhole would be a frustruating process, doubly so with the recent struggle in customer service.
 

DonRaphael

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dapperclassic

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Has @spiermackay chimed in on the armhole debate or has anybody asked Rick about it like via Instagram?
Lots of speculation happening here lol
Yep. Rick mentioned that the return rate has been low and no one, other than SF guys have raised concerns. Nevertheless, the armhole has now been lowered but SS22 was already in production by the time the change to the pattern was made, that means the majority of the SS22 collection will be with the +2cm higher armhole. Some later releases will come with the lowered armhole.

The raised breast pocket which some have observed was related to the armhole change, both armhole and pocket were raised by 2cm. The pocket should not have moved. That has now also been resolved and should roll out with the later SS22 releases.
 

mossrockss

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Yep. Rick mentioned that the return rate has been low and no one, other than SF guys have raised concerns. Nevertheless, the armhole has now been lowered but SS22 was already in production by the time the change to the pattern was made, that means the majority of the SS22 collection will be with the +2cm higher armhole. Some later releases will come with the lowered armhole.

The raised breast pocket which some have observed was related to the armhole change, both armhole and pocket were raised by 2cm. The pocket should not have moved. That has now also been resolved and should roll out with the later SS22 releases.
OK good to know!
I want to try the higher armhole; didn't have reason to order any f/w jackets. But I guess if it'll be the 1cm-higher version going forward, that's the one to give a try.
High armholes on RTW are always a gamble. But if it works for you, boy does it feel great. You can never go back.
What constitutes 'high' is of course in the body of the wearer. Would be nice to have an advanced option for MTO to choose high/low (rather than the comments box 'roll the dice' method in place now).
 

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