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Ezio

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I dunno, I just care about looking great at great prices and SM does that for me with aplomb.

I mean sure, I wish we were all financial bankers with seven figure salaries that can shell out a pretty penny for a custom made Neapolitan suit or whatever, but not everyone has that in reach. SM is bringing styles and fabrics that ordinarily I may not be able to afford where I am right now in life and I for one am glad that I can still look like a million bucks and stand out amongst a crowd without punching my wallet into kingdom come.

As an average customer who is not as deep into custom suiting and styles as some, I think SM is a godsend. And tbh, to me, I honestly think that in the price bracket we're dealing with, their suits are better, more unique, and more stylish than major players like Moore's and TipTop who charge similar prices for more substandard or I dunno, lame suits. Thats what I used to have to deal with and now that I realize I can get better stuff for the same price or even less, I'm pretty much buying all my **** from SM.

The only issue I have is missing out on cool **** like the green Cotton suit or the copper linen suit or the medium Heather suit, but that's more on me for waiting than on SM for not trying cool ****.
 

hms056

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Hi all, hoping to get some fit advice (and add another irl image of the afb fresco for anyone that was still curious). On the left is the 38R contemp, the right is the 40R slim. Please excuse the poor pictures/posing.

I'm thinking that the 40R looks both too long and too big, though the chest feels like it fits me a little better. Honestly, not super jazzed about the way the arms fit on either jacket, though that may be due to the fact that I will need to shorten the sleeves no matter which size I take. It also looks like I have a dropped shoulder that contributes to an unsightly back. Curious to hear your takes.

front buttoned.png
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varsityreds0123

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The law determines what is theft and what is not. The lines are drawn based on what we believe is in the best interest of the community. There has to be a balance of benefit to the customers and to the innovators in order to encourage innovation without stiffiling competition.

It is a rare set of circumstances under which a company like S&M could possibly violate anyone’s rights; even if making blatant, direct, intentional, copies.

You may find it distasteful, but it is certainly not theft, and frankly, it is what the laws actively attempt to promote: increased customer access and competition for goods and services.

That is what the law says, yes. My point was intended more so to address the ethical perspective, as opposed to the legal. Hence why I used the term "theft" so liberally.

Let me ask you this. Do you agree with the law, in this case? Every time you see an iteration of the EG Galway produced by some other company, are you convinced it's ethically sound practice?

I'm enjoying this discussion, though I hope it's not boring the nails out of everyone. :rotflmao:
 

Patrick R

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Hi all, hoping to get some fit advice (and add another irl image of the afb fresco for anyone that was still curious). On the left is the 38R contemp, the right is the 40R slim. Please excuse the poor pictures/posing.

I'm thinking that the 40R looks both too long and too big, though the chest feels like it fits me a little better. Honestly, not super jazzed about the way the arms fit on either jacket, though that may be due to the fact that I will need to shorten the sleeves no matter which size I take. It also looks like I have a dropped shoulder that contributes to an unsightly back. Curious to hear your takes.


I think the 38R looks better and will be good to go once you fix the sleeve length. But, if you aren't comfortable with the fit in the chest, maybe that should be addressed as well.

The back is not bad for RTW and will likely look better (1) when you remove the basting stitches and (2) after you break it in a bit. My first SM jacket had a crazy looking back the first two wears and then settled into a really nice fit.
 

Ezio

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That is what the law says, yes. My point was intended more so to address the ethical perspective, as opposed to the legal. Hence why I used the term "theft" so liberally.

Let me ask you this. Do you agree with the law, in this case? Every time you see an iteration of the EG Galway produced by some other company, are you convinced it's ethically sound practice?

I'm enjoying this discussion, though I hope it's not boring the nails out of everyone. :rotflmao:
It's like watching an episode of Suits but starring clothes nerds on the internet
 

Wilson13

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Hi all, hoping to get some fit advice (and add another irl image of the afb fresco for anyone that was still curious). On the left is the 38R contemp, the right is the 40R slim. Please excuse the poor pictures/posing.

I'm thinking that the 40R looks both too long and too big, though the chest feels like it fits me a little better. Honestly, not super jazzed about the way the arms fit on either jacket, though that may be due to the fact that I will need to shorten the sleeves no matter which size I take. It also looks like I have a dropped shoulder that contributes to an unsightly back. Curious to hear your takes.


Wait, that’s the Air Force Blue? The color is way off either in your pics (most likely) or the website pics.

38R, though.
 

Patrick R

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That is what the law says, yes. My point was intended more so to address the ethical perspective, as opposed to the legal. Hence why I used the term "theft" so liberally.

Let me ask you this. Do you agree with the law, in this case? Every time you see an interaction of the EG Galway produced by some other company, are you convinced it's ethically sound practice?

I'm enjoying this discussion, though I hope it's not boring the nails out of everyone. :rotflmao:

I have written thousands of pages on the topic so it pains me to answer a question like "Do you agree with the law, in this case?" with a simple yes, but I'm not going to give you a law review article on the topic explaining all of the ways I would like to see the rules shifted. So, generally, yes, I agree with the law in that I believe it strikes the right balance of incentives and benefits to innovators and the general public.

Another short and painful answer: I am 100% convinced that I agree with other companies being able to legally copy the EG Galway.

There are four common intellectual property regimes: patent; trademark; copyright; and trade secret. There are differences in rules across countries, but generally there is significant harmony across borders, so I'm going to pretend it is all one universal system. I'm also going to ignore trade secrets and copyrights for now, because they aren't the primary issues here. But I would write about how those systems can be used for clothing/shoe design.

If the design of the EG Galway was patented (for example, a US Design Patent), EG would own the design for a limited period of time (15 years for a design patent, 20 years for a utility patent), after which the design passes into the public domain. If it were patented, and it was within the life of the patent, and there were copies, I would not be cool with it. But EG doesn't have a patent, and even if they had, it would be well past the life of the patent, as EG claims to have been making the Galway for the best part of a century (https://www.edwardgreen.com/discovery/galway). Once the patent life expires, the invention passes into the public domain for all to copy. This is a feature of the system, not a bug. The hypothetical negotiation between the inventor and the government is that the government will enforce a limited monopoly for the innovation in exchange for the innovator bringing something to market that everyone will be able to copy after the limited period expires. It is what we believe is good for society and provides enough incentive for the innovators to continue to innovate. (Don't ask me if I believe this hypothetical is true or necessary to create innovation!) So I don't believe there are any conceivable patent rights being violated by copies of the Galway boot.

Trademarks protect names, logos, taglines, etc.; the branding of the product and the company. In this case, the name Edward Green is a trademark and the name Galway is a trademark (registered or not, it is a trademark). Because Edward Green owns the rights to those names, the copies cannot use those names. If they did, I would be opposed. It gets tricky when companies don't copy, but use something that is arguably confusingly similar. For example, if Vass were to call their version the Valway, I might argue that is trademark infringement. I will leave those edge cases unexplored for now and simply say that if people aren't copying the names, then it isn't a trademark infringement.

Lastly, over time, a company can develop trademark rights in product design. For example, the shape of the Coke bottle is a trademark; people know it is a Coke product simply by the shape of the bottle. I believe Edward Green could make an argument that the distinctive design element on the side of the boot could be a trademark. As they say, "the Galway is instantly recognisable from the distinctive, curved arrowhead on its side." However, to establish these trademark rights, a company needs to police its mark by proactively attacking copies and maintaining sole use of the design element in the marketplace. The existence of copies demonstrates that the design element is not, in fact, an enforceable trademark. Based on the numerous copies on the market and the lack of enforcement, it does not appear to me that EG has an enforceable trademark.

There are times that people/companies follow the letter of the law and I still believe that there is something ethically unsound about the practice. I don't feel that way about these particular IP rights that I have described. I believe the system is (approximately) appropriately designed to address these concerns and to promote fairness in commerce.

Ok, I'm stopping for now...
 

Caustic Man

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FWIW, I could afford to spend a lot more on clothes than I do. But, you know, I try to be as responsible with money as I can. I hold it in trust to do good for my community it what ways I can achieve and conceive of. Not being able to afford something else has nothing to do with why I like SM. I like SM because they are on the cutting edge of the intersection between quality and value. You all must have realized by now that good menswear is getting cheaper and cheaper in many respects. Now I can look better and better and have more and more money left over for fun, or charity, or emergencies.
 

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