Some thoughts on Kiton

[Artisan Fan]

In looking at the recent Kiton threads it appears I was a bit defensive yesterday. I guess I feel a need to explain myself and my views on Kiton. It did not help that I have been in severe back pain much of the week due to an aggravated disc so I may have been a bit grumpy. My apologies if I was. Here's my conflict with what is going on and what I think might be done:

The Truth presented some compelling photos showing some of the jacket consisting of machine stitching. We had seen some of this before but it did paint a story. What I feel may be wrong is leaping to the conclusion that some made regarding "Kiton being far from a handmade garment."

At the same time, I am grateful for TT pushing us toward a deeper understanding of what the construction reality is.

So that's one piece of useful information. The other are some 15 year long relationships with the tailors and sales staff at Kiton. These folks have never put down a competitor or acted anything other than complete gentlemen in my presence. They have told me on a number of occasions that the jackets have around 25-28 hours of handwork in them. They have discussed the industry in a way that has shown them to be reliable sources of information. This estimate of handwork has been consistently relayed to me by people in various departments of Kiton from NA Sales to suit tailoring staff to a manager I know well in the shirts area. I have no reason to doubt these people I have gotten to know well.

So this is the second compelling piece of information.

Third is this comment from Allen (Zegnamtl) who has done a superb job of bringing some useful information to us via his documented factory tours.

As we return to the shop floor, the view from a small window of the second floor offices out to the production floor drives home the degree of scale at play. Kiton is one of the most respected names in fine men’s wear. Yet the floor is home to only 250 tailors, who produce about 18,000 suits and sports jackets per year. About one suit per week per tailor! This type of production places Kiton at about 1/4th the scale of Brioni who is said to produce 65,000 units per year, and dwarfed by the production runs of houses such as Canali and Zegna.

This information leads me to conclude that some significant handwork must go into each suit.

The fourth piece of information is my personal satisfaction with the suits. Like some I began my long journey with cheap stuff like Jos A. Bank and Britches type suits at my first job, then bought Armani (no better really) then got a taste of the good life with Zegna suits which I still enjoy. I thne tried some Oxxford jackets which introduced me to some quality handwork and a better quality jacket. During the boom years of the late 90s some investments paid off and my disposable income being high I tried Kiton and Brioni and fell in love with the craftmanship, fabrics and fit. I began to regularly order suits from Massimo during regular trunk shows to Louis and Neimans. I spent a lot of time in Boston since one of my software company's cofounders is an MIT guy. Through Murray's excellent collaboratives at Louis I got to learn quite a bit about the clothing manufacture and the sourcing of Kiton fabrics. I like the background and technology and the history of style and slowly began to collect a quality library of books on the subject.

I ordered some 40 shirts, mostly MTM, and around 6 suits initially (picked up two more at sales events in Atlanta and Boston) and began to dabble in better quality and bespoke footwear with Edward Green (based on Massimo's recommendation) and Jason Amesbury who I became friends with. He's working on the second pair now so I hope to have some good pics by the end of the year.

Quite simply my Kiton suits travel a lot (I used to live on a Delta plane when I worked with McKinsey as a consultant) and have held up beautifully. As you know I have never had a problem with my 150s suits and my 14 Micron held up wonderfully at a recent wedding in Charleston. I get more compliments on my Kiton than any other suits and I feel super-comfortable in them. In a word they have been spectacular investments for me.

So as you can see I am quite conflicted with all these threads here. On the one hand I want to understand more about the true quality of Kiton, on the other hand I have friends telling me there is more handwork than the pictures suggest.

It seems my only option is to do more research and share with the membership here what I learn.

I hope this thread helps to explain my view on all this. If members have some ideas on how to learn more about the amount of handwork in the suits or other valuable information, please reply here with your thoughts. I have friends at Brioni so I may reach out to them as well and get their thoughts.

What we may find is that the amount of handwork vs. machine work may be of less importance than some other knowledge, but it may be useful in evaluating the prices of various brands to understand where the baseline is. Admittedly with Kiton being priced at Rubinacci levels there may be better options from a value perspective.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

What we may find is that the amount of handwork vs. machine work may be of less importance than some other knowledge, but it may be useful in evaluating the prices of various brands to understand where the baseline is. Admittedly with Kiton being priced at Rubinacci levels there may be better options from a value perspective.
Good post L, here are my thoughts. I have been buying Kiton for about 25 years, first seeing the garments at Trillon, Palm Beach and then Louis. I have also spoken at length to Murray, Massimo et al. on the quality and amount of work going into these garments and found the following to be their consistent mantra: Kiton garments are handmade in the finest tradition of artisan tailoring, not hand tailored, but handmade and equal to any other's, bespoke or otherwise. TT's post, showed this claim to be false. If you were to deconstrcut my Shattuck or Raphael bespoke jackets you would see nothing but hand stitching where Kiton has used a machine. This is not conjecture, just simple fact. Does that make them better than Kiton, no, it does make them more handmade, though. And I must say, that anyone I respect in the business thinks that the "hours of handwork" quoted by the various makers is complete BS and no more than a marketing ploy that has no relation to quality. With Kiton suits pushing the $6k-$7k, their ability to maintain credibility weakens. Yes, they have wonderful fabrics, but for my last bespoke commission I ordered a 3 piece suit form top quality Lesser cloth and paid significantly less. So, as a Kiton fan myself, it saddens me to see them exposed, but they have brought much of this upon themselves.

 

[Artisan Fan]

Thank you Andrew for your comments.

TT's post, showed this claim to be false.

Has it? I mean that will all sincerity to getting to the reality. Are we really seeing where all the handwork is?

If it is machine made mostly, why do the tailors spend so much time on the garment given the low production?

I agree with you that the value proposition is fading in light of the extremely high prices on Kiton these days.

 

[aportnoy]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

Has it? I mean that will all sincerity to getting to the reality. Are we really seeing where all the handwork is? If it is machine made mostly, why do the tailors spend so much time on the garment given the low production?
Several of the most important elements of the sewing of the jacket are done by machine and that is not what Kiton would have you believe. I think these areas are critical to obtaining the best fitting garment and almost every top bespoke tailor would agree that there is a distinct benefit from hand sewing them.

 

[Artisan Fan]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Several of the most important elements of the sewing of the jacket are done by machine and that is not what Kiton would have you believe. I think these areas are critical to obtaining the best fitting garment and almost every top bespoke tailor would agree that there is a distinct benefit from hand sewing them.

A fair point Andrew, thanks. I'm not sure I can dispute that based on available information.

I will do some more research and hopefully have some valuable comments to share.

 

[Alias]

I guess they must not sew very fast.

 

[Roger]

Andrew and Artisan Fan, is it not possible that, although the stitching shown in the post by TT is indeed machine-done--and perhaps in an area where we were led to believe hand-stitching existed--it is where the difference between hand- and machine-stitching is neither noticeable at all nor of much importance? In other words, could Kiton claim that there might even be some structural and quality advantages to doing that stitching by a machine, rather than by hand.

In my mind, hand work is desirable only if it (a) leads to unequivocally superior construction or (b) is noticeable and pleasing, adding to the aesthetics of the garment. Following this logic, the best possible construction for me would be that where all seams and other stitching that is better done by a machine is, in fact, done by a machine, and all stitching that can actually be better done, structurally, by hand, or looks better if done by hand, is in fact done by hand. If this results in a suit that is 60% hand made and 40% maching made, that would be fine--and better than one that is 95% hand made.

 

[taxgenius]

Originally Posted by aportnoy

Good post L, here are my thoughts. I have been buying Kiton for about 25 years, first seeing the garments at Trillon, Palm Beach and then Louis. I have also spoken at length to Murray, Massimo et al. on the quality and amount of work going into these garments and found the following to be their consistent mantra:

Kiton garments are handmade in the finest tradition of artisan tailoring, not hand tailored, but handmade and equal to any other's, bespoke or otherwise.

TT's post, showed this claim to be false. If you were to deconstrcut my Shattuck or Raphael bespoke jackets you would see nothing but hand stitching where Kiton has used a machine. This is not conjecture, just simple fact. Does that make them better than Kiton, no, it does make them more handmade, though. And I must say, that anyone I respect in the business thinks that the "hours of handwork" quoted by the various makers is complete BS and no more than a marketing ploy that has no relation to quality.

With Kiton suits pushing the $6k-$7k, their ability to maintain credibility weakens. Yes, they have wonderful fabrics, but for my last bespoke commission I ordered a 3 piece suit form top quality Lesser cloth and paid significantly less.

So, as a Kiton fan myself, it saddens me to see them exposed, but they have brought much of this upon themselves.

Finally some truth.

 

[taxgenius]

Originally Posted by Artisan Fan

In looking at the recent Kiton threads it appears I was a bit defensive yesterday. I guess I feel a need to explain myself and my views on Kiton. It did not help that I have been in severe back pain much of the week due to an aggravated disc so I may have been a bit grumpy. My apologies if I was. Here's my conflict with what is going on and what I think might be done:

The Truth presented some compelling photos showing some of the jacket consisting of machine stitching. We had seen some of this before but it did paint a story. What I feel may be wrong is leaping to the conclusion that some made regarding "Kiton being far from a handmade garment."

At the same time, I am grateful for TT pushing us toward a deeper understanding of what the construction reality is.

So that's one piece of useful information. The other are some 15 year long relationships with the tailors and sales staff at Kiton. These folks have never put down a competitor or acted anything other than complete gentlemen in my presence. They have told me on a number of occasions that the jackets have around 25-28 hours of handwork in them. They have discussed the industry in a way that has shown them to be reliable sources of information. This estimate of handwork has been consistently relayed to me by people in various departments of Kiton from NA Sales to suit tailoring staff to a manager I know well in the shirts area. I have no reason to doubt these people I have gotten to know well.

So this is the second compelling piece of information.

Third is this comment from Allen (Zegnamtl) who has done a superb job of bringing some useful information to us via his documented factory tours.



This information leads me to conclude that some significant handwork must go into each suit.

The fourth piece of information is my personal satisfaction with the suits. Like some I began my long journey with cheap stuff like Jos A. Bank and Britches type suits at my first job, then bought Armani (no better really) then got a taste of the good life with Zegna suits which I still enjoy. I thne tried some Oxxford jackets which introduced me to some quality handwork and a better quality jacket. During the boom years of the late 90s some investments paid off and my disposable income being high I tried Kiton and Brioni and fell in love with the craftmanship, fabrics and fit. I began to regularly order suits from Massimo during regular trunk shows to Louis and Neimans. I spent a lot of time in Boston since one of my software company's cofounders is an MIT guy. Through Murray's excellent collaboratives at Louis I got to learn quite a bit about the clothing manufacture and the sourcing of Kiton fabrics. I like the background and technology and the history of style and slowly began to collect a quality library of books on the subject.

I ordered some 40 shirts, mostly MTM, and around 6 suits initially (picked up two more at sales events in Atlanta and Boston) and began to dabble in better quality and bespoke footwear with Edward Green (based on Massimo's recommendation) and Jason Amesbury who I became friends with. He's working on the second pair now so I hope to have some good pics by the end of the year.

Quite simply my Kiton suits travel a lot (I used to live on a Delta plane when I worked with McKinsey as a consultant) and have held up beautifully. As you know I have never had a problem with my 150s suits and my 14 Micron held up wonderfully at a recent wedding in Charleston. I get more compliments on my Kiton than any other suits and I feel super-comfortable in them. In a word they have been spectacular investments for me.

So as you can see I am quite conflicted with all these threads here. On the one hand I want to understand more about the true quality of Kiton, on the other hand I have friends telling me there is more handwork than the pictures suggest.

It seems my only option is to do more research and share with the membership here what I learn.

I hope this thread helps to explain my view on all this. If members have some ideas on how to learn more about the amount of handwork in the suits or other valuable information, please reply here with your thoughts. I have friends at Brioni so I may reach out to them as well and get their thoughts.

What we may find is that the amount of handwork vs. machine work may be of less importance than some other knowledge, but it may be useful in evaluating the prices of various brands to understand where the baseline is. Admittedly with Kiton being priced at Rubinacci levels there may be better options from a value perspective.


It seems like you were following a certain religion all your life only to find out that your god was false. No need to attack the messenger. Time for introspection and determine if you were lied to, by whom, and why.

 

[Artisan Fan]

It seems like you were following a certain religion all your life only to find out that your god was false. No need to attack the messenger. Time for introspection and determine if you were lied to, by whom, and why.

Andrew and Artisan Fan, is it not possible that, although the stitching shown in the post by TT is indeed machine-done--and perhaps in an area where we were led to believe hand-stitching existed--it is where the difference between hand- and machine-stitching is neither noticeable at all nor of much importance?

I think that's quite possible.

In my mind, hand work is desirable only if it (a) leads to unequivocally superior construction or (b) is noticeable and pleasing, adding to the aesthetics of the garment. Following this logic, the best possible construction for me would be that where all seams and other stitching that is better done by a machine is, in fact, done by a machine, and all stitching that can actually be better done, structurally, by hand, or looks better if done by hand, is in fact done by hand. If this results in a suit that is 60% hand made and 40% maching made, that would be fine--and better than one that is 95% hand made.

Interesting and possibly valid view Roger.

 

[taxgenius]

Originally Posted by Roger

In my mind, hand work is desirable only if it (a) leads to unequivocally superior construction or (b) is noticeable and pleasing, adding to the aesthetics of the garment. Following this logic, the best possible construction for me would be that where all seams and other stitching that is better done by a machine is, in fact, done by a machine, and all stitching that can actually be better done, structurally, by hand, or looks better if done by hand, is in fact done by hand. If this results in a suit that is 60% hand made and 40% maching made, that would be fine--and better than one that is 95% hand made.

It's hard to argue with that one. What's the point of hand work if it looks worse than machine or doesn't last as long as machine.

 

[itsstillmatt]

Originally Posted by Roger

Andrew and Artisan Fan, is it not possible that, although the stitching shown in the post by TT is indeed machine-done--and perhaps in an area where we were led to believe hand-stitching existed--it is where the difference between hand- and machine-stitching is neither noticeable at all nor of much importance? In other words, could Kiton claim that there might even be some structural and quality advantages to doing that stitching by a machine, rather than by hand.
Might be a good time to apply Occam's Razor. Too many leaps of faith in this explanation for me.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by Roger

Andrew and Artisan Fan, is it not possible that, although the stitching shown in the post by TT is indeed machine-done--and perhaps in an area where we were led to believe hand-stitching existed--it is where the difference between hand- and machine-stitching is neither noticeable at all nor of much importance? In other words, could Kiton claim that there might even be some structural and quality advantages to doing that stitching by a machine, rather than by hand.

They could claim that, but it would be BS. Handwork in the canvas, and in attaching the canvas to the lapel, results in a superior garment. Better shape, better roll, more resiliency, more spring, etc.

 

[Roger]

Originally Posted by taxgenius69

It seems like you were following a certain religion all your life only to find out that your god was false. No need to attack the messenger. Time for introspection and determine if you were lied to, by whom, and why.
I think that this is a far, far too extreme analogy to what has transpired via TT's pictures! I also think that use of words like "lying," etc., in this situation is inappropriate. To discover that a particular seam or pattern of stitching is actually done by a machine when we had thought that it was actually done by hand is absolutely no reason to begin to "introspect" or try to get to the bottom of 'by whom and why we were lied to'. I suspect that very few forumers are now going to say, "jeez, Kiton has some machine-stitching; damn them for lying to us; I'll never want a Kiton suit again." The fact is that, in the world of RTW suits and jackets (not to mention trousers and shirts), Kiton make a fabulous garment that many people love for tons of valid reasons--superb fabrics, superb construction, and a true Neapolitan silhouette that many find really flattering. I sure won't be doing any introspection on the basis of yesterday's "expose"!

 

[Manton]

Seems to me that Kiton is (or may be) guilty of obfuscation. They don't exactly say that their garments are all handsewn, but they imply it and they encourage people to believe it, and they certainly do nothing to clarify the issue. Rather, if asked directly, they dismiss it as a non-issue and obfuscate further. Sort of like the response you get from certain tailors if you ask if they outsource and of their clothes to factories.