Sole Welting

[thelonius]

Does anyone know if any of the Northamptonshire firms make shoes using Blake rapid construction ?
Many thanks.

 

[DWFII]

I'd be interested in hearing different but I suspect there are none.

The English Trade has historically been focused on HW.

When the Goodyear machine was invented, it was conceived as a way to simulate HW without the skilled workers or the time and expense.

It is my understanding that it is more expensive to set up the machinery, etc., for Blake-Rapid than for GY. So manufacturies that are invested in GY construction and promoting it as "good as" or "the best made shoes in Elbonia" aren't going to be eager to scrap all that any time soon...even if it means an objectively better product.

 

[T4phage]

@DWFII
i know that handwelting
gives a bit of water resistance
(as does gy and blake-rapid)

i have a few handwelted
shoes from a maker
that i used before
but when i use
footpowder
after a few minutes
i see powder outside the
shoe
on top of the welt....

why is that?

 

[DWFII]



@DWFII

i have a few handwelted shoes from a maker that i used before but when i use
footpowder after a few minutes i see powder outside the shoe on top of the welt....

why is that?

Like anything the quality of the final result is affected by the quality of the materials and techniques.

Thread for inseaming needs to be waxed...for three reasons:

First, to protect the thread and to prevent rotting. This only works if the wax itself is anti-bacterial. Traditionally, hand waxes (or "coad," in the ancient parlance) were made of pine pitch, pine rosin and beeswax or sometimes a little bit of whale or cod oil. The pitch and the rosin coated and protected the linen or hemp yarn which was then twisted in to a heavier thread.

Second...and as a direct result of using the pine pitch/rosin wax....the wax would lock the stitches in place. As you can imagine pine pitch and pine rosin make a very sticky wax that heats up as it is pulled through the leather and solidifies after the stitch is set.

Thirdly, the hot wax (from the friction of inseaming) fills and seals the holes in the holdfast and inseam.

Tight and closely spaced stitches can augment the seal created by the wax, just as loose and /or widely spaced stitches can undermine it. As can too large (diameter) an awl being used.

All else being equal, if powder is/was coming from your shoes, I suspect it comes down to wax and technique. This is one of the reasons I am less than fond of the AH school of shoemaking, at least as it is commonly practiced--wide inseam stitches, thick inseaming awls and non-tacky, beeswax or paraffin based hand wax.

The traditional wisdom is that a properly HW shoe of good leather can withstand immersion in water (up to the tongue) without any moisture entering the shoe.

 

[T4phage]

^
thank you

it was defintiely
powder from inside
the shoe
going out

 

[Isbister]

Sorry, I have come to this thread late and am unable at the moment to read all the earlier posts. My only experience of hand-welted footwear is a pair of riding boots that were made for me 15 years ago. All my other shoes are machine welted from various Northampton makers.

The only trouble I have ever had with welting concerned the riding boots - both welts started to fail at the fore end when the boots were about 10 years old. I should point pout that they are worn not more than once a week, and quite often less frequently than that. On the other hand, they quite often come into contact with mud and rain - sometimes muck also. However, all my other shoes frequently experience mud and wetness also.

Since being repaired by their maker (a costly business...) the boots have given no further trouble.

I have questioned people at both Edward Green and Crockett & Jones as to the incidence of rib failure ('gemming failure') - they deal with many, many different types of shoes repair and refurbishment, but they assured me that rib failure is almost unheard of.

 

[DWFII]



I have questioned people at both Edward Green and Crockett & Jones as to the incidence of rib failure ('gemming failure') - they deal with many, many different types of shoes repair and refurbishment, but they assured me that rib failure is almost unheard of.

They are heavily invested in the GY process--the machines, the materials, the perception that GY is a good substitute/proxy for hand welting--what would you expect them to say?

It is not in their interest, at any level, to acknowledge or even care about gemming failure. In the re-craft shops, the insole and the gemming and the welt are going to be replaced as a matter of course. They don't look for, or even think about if, or how frequently, the gemming has failed--it's all going in the trash...even if it's tight as a tick.

All the apologias for GY welting...and that's exactly what they are...come down to considerations regarding time and money...not quality. In the end GY is masquerading as HW. It's like pyrite--it looks like gold...

But it isn't.

 

[Isbister]

They are heavily invested in the GY process--the machines, the materials, the perception that GY is a good substitute/proxy for hand welting--what would you expect them to say?

It is not in their interest, at any level, to acknowledge or even care about gemming failure. In the re-craft shops, the insole and the gemming and the welt are going to be replaced as a matter of course. They don't look for, or even think about if, or how frequently, the gemming has failed--it's all going in the trash...even if it's tight as a tick.

All the apologias for GY welting...and that's exactly what they are...come down to considerations regarding time and money...not quality. In the end GY is masquerading as HW. It's like pyrite--it looks like gold...

But it isn't.

I'm sorry, but I am more inclined to believe Crockett & Jones and Edward Green than I am you - your post strikes me as borderline paranoid.

 

[DWFII]



I'm sorry, but I am more inclined to believe Crockett & Jones and Edward Green than I am you - your post strikes me as borderline paranoid.

Suit yourself, but yours strikes me as gullible and dependent, if not outright hucksterism.

Serious question...what do you know about the process, techniques, and Traditions of shoemaking? Anything beyond what you've been spoon fed?

 

[patrickBOOTH]

 

[DWFII]



thirsty work



Glad you're back to your old same avatar....

 

[Isbister]

Suit yourself, but yours strikes me as gullible and dependent, if not outright hucksterism.

Serious question...what do you know about the process, techniques, and Traditions of shoemaking? Anything beyond what you've been spoon fed?

Spoon-fed? ... why do you have to resort to what amounts to name-calling?

I suspect I know rather more than you, having studied the subject and written various articles on shoes and shoe-makers. I live in the centre of shoemaking, I know people who work in the shoe factories.

Frankly, I have to try hard to resist saying something along the lines of 'to suffer from what I think of as "rib failure" paranoia is itself a clear indicator of knowing rather little about shoe manufacture'.

To help us advance the discussion more positively, please describe to me how many and what make of shoes you have had that have suffered rib failure.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

 

[DWFII]



Spoon-fed? ... why do you have to resort to what amounts to name-calling?

Actually..if you remember your own post not so long ago (mere minutes in fact) you suggested I was paranoid...whether that's name calling in your book, it's no different than my suggesting you're gullible and dependent. And if you haven't ever done the work yourself, all you have to go on is hearsay--spoon fed, IOW.

Beyond that...

I suspect I know rather more than you

You mean by virtue of talking and writing (speculating)...and propinquity, let's not forget propinquity...you know more than someone who has spent well over forty years actually making shoes and boots ...as well as writing about them from a first person, wax under the fingernails, POV?

Who has, furthermore, torn apart and seen many, many gemmed boots and shoes and posted photos of gemming failure on this forum (maybe in this thread--which, by your own admission you have not bothered to read).

If that's what you mean, let me offer a quote from Isaac Asimov that, while written about Americans, applies to anyone of a certain age and/or self-satisfaction:

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. This strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
​

But don't feel all alone...I'm sure that even now you are getting support and commiseration from other equally ignorant (meaning "lacking in objective knowledge") individuals who have never done anything but wear shoes and nod their heads when told what they already believe and want to hear.

Here's a pair of mine...but you could just check my profile and look at my photo album...:

 

[Chanklebury]

I suspect I know rather more than you, having studied the subject and written various articles on shoes and shoe-makers. I live in the centre of shoemaking, I know people who work in the shoe factories.

Isbister, for your own benefit before you make any further comment that could lead to your embarrassment, DWF is a bespoke bootmaker of 'some' repute, in addition to being a respected author on the subject. Living in the centre of shoemaking is no claim of note when that centre is one of factories and knowing people who work in those factories is no substitute for experience and true knowledge. The experience and knowledge of a person who builds footwear by hand, every step of the way throughout that process.

A factory worker operates a machine. He is no cordwainer.

Despite grandiose claims, GY welted shoes are ultimately the product of a factory, and hence factory made, whether or not 'hands' have operated that machine.

edit: apologies DW, our posts crossed. HNW