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Sole Welting

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Quarantanove, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. The Shoe Snob

    The Shoe Snob Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    I am sorry DW, but when you make statements like this, it just goes to show, that A, you are basically calling GY shoes rubbish and B. your reality is far from the reality of the world.

    And when you make a comparison about something lasting forever, I truly hope that you are not thus saying that a HW shoes would do so?

    You can go on and on and on about GY this and HW that, but as you call out every other person in the room to show their facts, let's see yours. Are we to all believe that just because you say so, that gemming failure is the newest epidemic simply because you did a bunch of cowboy boots with gemming failure in the NW where it rains everyday and I am sure that no one ever took care of their shoes? You show the same 2 pictures again and again, where are the rest? And if you can't provide those FACTS, why are you still fighting the fight when you simply dismiss others who can't show their facts?
     
    2 people like this.
  2. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    We are expecting rain the next few days here in NYC. I will say that I am wearing some gemming to get me through these troubled times.
     
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  3. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Quote:
    I feel sure you don't see anyone saying that GYW shoes are a symbol of despair, either.
     
  4. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Quote:Spot on in every respect, Justin. Very far removed from reality indeed.
     
  5. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Here's a little known fact: It rains more in New York City than in Seattle. :teach:
     
  6. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    +1

    People ramble on about facts without really knowing...or caring about...the facts.

    The fact is that I live in high desert. The boots and shoes that I photographed also live in the dry climate of Central Oregon. The which could have been determined with a glance at my avatar text or simple question rather than assumption...but that's all too much trouble, I suppose.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  7. The Shoe Snob

    The Shoe Snob Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    yea so does Florida and a bunch of other places that get torrential downpours for an hour or so and that downpour makes up enough rain for Seattle for a week. But Seattle (and the rest of the NW) will rain for weeks solid and even though it's not always as hard as that in NYC or Miami or wherever, the fact it is that you can't escape it (since it doesn't stop) and thus your shoes get subjected to it far more.

    When has it ever rained in NYC for 77 days straight? In Seattle it has....
     
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  8. The Shoe Snob

    The Shoe Snob Senior member Affiliate Vendor

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    fair enough.....i can admit incorrect assumption if I have done so......but let's still see the facts about all those shoes failing from gemming that seemed to have sparked this thread/kept it alive for so long? The pandemic of shoes from all of the GY shoes ever sold in the world. Have we forgotten about those facts? Because the boots/shoes that you repaired are not fact enough....we either need pictures or multiple other repairmen to chime in. Since no other shoe repairmen are not chiming in, in favor of gemming failure, well then we simply need more pictures than just 2.....

    And let me state for the record, again for all of those new to the thread,, I am in favor of HW shoes versus GY, but I am not in favor of calling GY shoes nothing but cheap rate knock off's....
     
  9. jssdc

    jssdc Senior member

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    DWF when I look at your signature I feel it provides a useful articulation of your thinking: without good there's no better, without better no best. Probably sentiments that most here would agree with. And presumably there's also some "not good" and "downright bad" in there as well.

    The comparisons above are problematic because they're between "bests" (A&S, PP, etc.) and a whole range of not-bests: "good" (Timex), "not good" (JAB), and "downright bad" (White Castle). This range of comparisons allows some posters to extrapolate your feelings about GYW - that relative to a HW shoe any GYW shoe (G&G or C&J for example) occupies the same relative positioning that JAB does to A&S. I'm not asserting that you have explicitly stated this, only that the way the comparison has been constructed allows for this interpretation.

    This is challenging because JAB is widely regarded as crap for a number of reasons both objective (fused) and subjective (ugly). And while at this point I think most reasonable people would have that G&G are inferior to HW shoes most also feel they're a long way from crap. Or most HW shoes at any rate - I'm personally not sold on LM.

    Going back to your signature, I'm more than prepared to accept that no GYW shoe can enter the category of "best". Simply isn't possible due to the inherent limitations of the construction. What is more challenging for me is accepting the proposition (if it's a proposition at all) that the C&J I'm wearing at the moment are the functional equivalent of J&M (or Stacey Adams or Kenneth Cole or Aldo) just because they share similarities in architecture - and that both are the functional equivalent of a cheap suit.

    My feeling is that they're somewhere in the "good" to "better" range....not "best" to be sure but so long as the recognition is there I don't see the problem. It's simply an economic decision - that is, one made in the presence of scarcity and therefore requiring trade offs of some sort. Were I to deny that these trade-offs exist (either in my shoe purchases or in any other personal or business decision) I would be wrong, as I would then be making decisions blindly.

    But contending, as you appear to do above, that all economic decisions are equal and invite the same degree of compromise is I think off-base in the other extreme, in that it denies that the decision-maker has agency in interpreting his circumstances and the trade-offs that exist. This need not (and often enough does not) result in a race to the bottom - even if the "best"-level product is not ultimately selected.
     
    2 people like this.
  10. thelonius

    thelonius Senior member

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    it rains almost all the time in Wales
     
  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    One, you're not sorry. So cut the bullshit.

    Two I wasn't speaking specifically to GY welted shoes anymore than the quote I made was speaking about GY (which, in fact...devoid of febrile hysteria...very clearly and singularly used the word "cheap" for the reading pleasureof those who can read). Both the quote and I were talking to the point (I know, it's a despised convention to speak to the point here) made by dbhdnhdbh that for all intents and purposes questioned the whole concept of quality...or at last the desirability of recognizing or valuing it.

    Why should there be more photos? I don't do shoe repair. I haven't for 10 years And when I did it ...as I said in an earlier post that some obviously didn't comprehend....the shoe repairmen I worked with and for, just accepted that GY meant trouble. No one was questioning that fact, no one could imagine in their wildest dreams that it would ever be questioned or that photos would be needed.

    But tell me...or show me...or let's challenge Nick to produce even an equal amount of photos that show holdfast failure on a HW shoe. Not broken threads or loose welt as Bengal Stripe focuses on but holdfast failure. Now I am perfectly willing to accept that there are indeed such examples, but no one has produced any.

    The photos are objective evidence--they are facts, no matter how you would like to devalue them or qualify them. They are what they are--objective evidence. My kitchen experiment is based on the immutable facts of GY vs. HW construction. I've produced testimony from other shoemakers. Produced factual evidence from the recraft department at Edward Green. I've presented fact. You and your fellow travelers have produced none....NONE!!

    Why is that, do you think? Could it be because you're defending the indefensible? Because there is no way to compare GY welted construction with HW without coming to the conclusion that there are problems with GY?

    Have you looked at the link to to the blog above? You have a blog where you proselytize for GY and pointedly against people who point out the obvious--that GY is far more prone to problems than HW. Fair enough--- that's your bread and butter and the mainstay of the industry...which you say you love (I don't doubt it). But the link above clearly shows a high end...a very high end...RTW GY welted shoe with some serious gemming failure.

    That's the facts.

    Whatever you think of me and my observations, if you dismiss everything that contradicts your clearly subjective POV, it's nothing less than denial and willful ignorance.

    --
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
  12. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    @jssdc - well said indeed.
     
  13. RIDER

    RIDER Senior member

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    Wear the boots......
     
  14. diadem

    diadem Senior member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RogerP [​IMG]
    I feel sure you don't see anyone saying that GYW shoes are a symbol of despair, either.
    That's just asinine. I don't see anyone saying we should all throw out our GY shoes and it was outlandish of you to come to that conclusion from what's been said so far. And for the record, he posted a quote saying cheap goods are a symbol of despair. Honestly, as the craftsman that DW is, that's not a crazy thing for him to say. I don't see anything wrong with that. If you go back in the thread, you'll see that he also said that GY shoes are necessary as not everyone can or is willing to pay for the labor that goes into a HW shoe. That doesn't mean he should be happy about people buying more GY shoes or the GY method of construction being used for luxury-priced shoes. From the perspective of someone who makes shoes, that's pretty disconcerting. At the end of the day, the overwhelming majority of people in this thread don't make shoes (or sell shoes) for a living and aren't directly affected by the HW vs. GYW argument. If you like your GY shoes, wear them in good health and haters gonna hate. However, I personally have a hard time understanding how some makers can justify charging as much for RTW GY shoes as others charge for MTO HW shoes. I can only see myself buying RTW EG's, JL's, and G&G's at significant discounts, no matter how nice I think the leather, finishing, and shape of the last are. Just browsing the MC section of SF, makers like Maftei, Riccardo Bestetti, and Antonio Meccariello are making MTO HW shoes for as much G&G RTW GY shoes are sold at retail prices. That honestly makes me go WTF.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
    2 people like this.
  15. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    ^^^ Please help yourself to another serving of Kool-Aid. What could go wrong?
     
  16. diadem

    diadem Senior member

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    If I'm drinking Kool-Aid, you're drinking mercury. Just saying...
     
  17. JubeiSpiegel

    JubeiSpiegel Senior member

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    Haha, this thread... :lurk:
     
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  18. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    There really isn't much of an "if" surrounding your Kool-Aid consumption. Just keep chanting to yourself "GYW shoes are a symbol of despair!" and you will no doubt feel better about yourself and life in general.
     
  19. diadem

    diadem Senior member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RogerP [​IMG]
    There really isn't much of an "if" surrounding your Kool-Aid consumption. Just keep chanting to yourself "GYW shoes are a symbol of despair!" and you will no doubt feel better about yourself and life in general.
    This is precious. Where exactly in my post did I say GYW shoes are a symbol of despair? I said that HE (meaning DWFII) posted a quote saying cheap goods are a symbol of despair and that it's understandable how HE can feel that way. I never mentioned that I feel that way. In fact, I have stated in this thread that I own several pairs of GYW shoes and don't regret my purchases.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
    2 people like this.
  20. Chanklebury

    Chanklebury Senior member

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    RogerP, while you may consider yourself amusing your snide remarks are not only boring but portray you as conceited and frankly rather a bully.

    Do you have anything of substance to add to earlier discussion? Perhaps you could contribute a little of value rather than carrying on in recent fashion.
     
    3 people like this.

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