Sole Welting

[DWFII]



Although I don't enjoy the sniping, I am constantly amazed by the intensity of emotion over bits of leather for the feet. I mean, I care about shoes, and all. But I doubt I will ever get to the point where my biggest problem was that some anonymous guy on the internet disagreed with me about something. If I do get there, I will be so happy I might stop smoking crack.

With hesitation, I ask those who apparently enjoy the sniping whether they find that shouting at strangers online really brings about a desired effect? If the desired effect is converting a discussion to a fight, then it probably works. If the goal is to enhance the discussion, not so much.

I am sure all are perfect gentlemen in person. Can we keep the passion, but apply conventional standards of manners?

You asked...Look through this thread. Really read it (I suspect that's probably not going to happen but it could be a clue if your interest is sincere.) Most of my posts are in response to questions directed specifically at me regarding issues that I know something about by virtue of years of hard work and dedication.

Many of the responses come from people who know nothing about the subject other than what they wish or imagine is true.

I post about subjects I know something about. For all practical purposes, here in this thread, on this forum, that's shoemaking. Others, in this thread in particular, only post about what they know--themselves, IOW. And nothing else. And certainly nothing germane to the subject / conversation.

Why is there sniping and ill-will here? It comes from a sense of entitlement. Probably even a sense of being ignored. "Ooh! Ooh! Listen to me!" "Call on me!" "You didn't ask my opinion!"

I don't believe in entitlement...even if others give lip-service to it in order to appear nicey-nicey. I believe in earning your way. That's the way I was raised. You work, you reap.

I could happily confine all my posts to threads that deal with shoemaking issues...because I know something about that subject. I'm not talking about opinion, I'm talking about hard, bought and paid for, knowledge.

If others could confine their posts to subjects they know...repeat know...I suspect it would make for a near perfect forum. Except then we'd have threads entitled something like "What's the Hap with RogerP."

And no, I'm not a gentleman...I've said this before. I'm of that certain age, where I don't care what people think of me. And I am impatient with trolls, free-riders and others too arrogant and ignorant to do the work to even become conversant with these subjects. For all of that, some won't like me, others may.

But I urge you...and anyone else who cares to think about it...to look at intent. For instance, what is my intent in answering questions from almost anyone, even people (like you) who I suspect are not entirely kindly disposed towards me? And what is the intent of the plethora of posts from the usual suspects that offer no substance, nothing concrete or objective to these conversations? Think about intent--whether a unique professional observation offered in the spirit of help is to be preferred to a mindless knee-jerk dismissal with nothing to support the conclusions drawn much less the disputatious spirit in which they are foisted upon us all.

V

--

 

[RogerP]

Good heavens, the self-absorbed ranting is really flowing today.

 

[DWFII]



That makes more sense. Is it a matter of adjusting the spacing between stitches to match that on each pair of shoes? Sounds tedious, but less so than stitching by hand.

If they were previously done by machine, which I gather would usually be the case except for some bespoke, then the spacing should be very even? Does not change as one works around the circumference of the shoe? Then line up the first stitch, adjust the length of the stitches, and it is still a quick job with a machine? I had visions of cobblers all over the country hand stitching soles, and it seemed too slow to be practical. 

A related sole question: The value of the stitches in holding the sole in place. Some shoes use glue alone. I know that these are considered junk on SF, but purely as a matter of the sole staying on, how much of the bond between the shoe and the sole is the glue, and how much is the stitches? I gather that these are lock stitches, so wearing the leather down so that some stitches break or are worn away does not mean the sole falls off. But I have seen shoes with this wear all around most of the portion of the sole that contacts the ground. Yet the soles were not coming off. Is this the lockstitching, or the glue?

Back when this method of soling shoes came along, did they use glue at all? Or was it only stitches that held the sole in place?

If you're talking / asking me...I am happy to answer ( I am admittedly being presumptuous). If not, disregard this.

Actually, good hand stitching will be more even than using the machine esp. if the machine operator isn't comfortable with it. You're right about circumferences. Stitches tend to "pile up" or even stretch out going around the toe...again depending on the operator.

Hand stitching is done to a very even count...circumferences and toe shapes don't matter....even when the stitcher, as with my particular friend at CWF, does it all by eye.

Glues / pastes...which is what was used before cements came along...were not used to hold the outsole in place prior to stitching. The stitching technique is very old.

When cements...which are not related to pastes...entered the picture they were not very good. But they were sufficient to make positioning the outsole easier esp. for those not trained, or not well trained.

Cements are much better these days and some even believe that they are the answer to all problems with lack of training or skill. But they do deteriorate...from exposure to oils and acids in the environment as well as ultraviolet...and, like gemming, which relies on the same fundamental philosophy, when they start to go, the whole of the bond is in jeopardy.

A good machine lock stitch will leave the lock itself in a position that is at least half way through the thickness of the outsole and the stitch will almost be bonded to the leather by the waxes that coat the thread.

When the stitching is done by hand, it is very different stitch from a machine stitch and, generally speaking, the waxes far harder to use but far superior in performance. You can dern near wear a handstitched outsole until the stitches are all but gone from anything but the welt and it will still try to hold.
--

 

[meister]

You asked...Look through this thread. Really read it (I suspect that's probably not going to happen but it could be a clue if your interest is sincere.) Most of my posts are in response to questions directed specifically at me regarding issues that I know something about by virtue of years of hard work and dedication.

Many of the responses come from people who know nothing about the subject other than what they wish or imagine is true.

I post about subjects I know something about. For all practical purposes, here in this thread, on this forum, that's shoemaking. Others, in this thread in particular, only post about what they know--themselves, IOW. And nothing else. And certainly nothing germane to the subject / conversation.

Why is there sniping and ill-will here? It comes from a sense of entitlement. Probably even a sense of being ignored. "Ooh! Ooh! Listen to me!" "Call on me!" "You didn't ask my opinion!"

I don't believe in entitlement...even if others give lip-service to it in order to appear nicey-nicey. I believe in earning your way. That's the way I was raised. You work, you reap.

I could happily confine all my posts to threads that deal with shoemaking issues...because I know something about that subject. I'm not talking about opinion, I'm talking about hard, bought and paid for, knowledge.

If others could confine their posts to subjects they know...repeat know...I suspect it would make for a near perfect forum. Except then we'd have threads entitled something like "What's the Hap with RogerP."

And no, I'm not a gentleman...I've said this before. I'm of that certain age, where I don't care what people think of me. And I am impatient with trolls, free-riders and others too arrogant and ignorant to do the work to even become conversant with these subjects. For all of that, some won't like me, others may.

But I urge you...and anyone else who cares to think about it...to look at intent. For instance, what is my intent in answering questions from almost anyone, even people (like you) who I suspect are not entirely kindly disposed towards me? And what is the intent of the plethora of posts from the usual suspects that offer no substance, nothing concrete or objective to these conversations? Think about intent--whether a unique professional observation offered in the spirit of help is to be preferred to a mindless knee-jerk dismissal with nothing to support the conclusions drawn much less the disputatious spirit in which they are foisted upon us all.

V

--

 

[Nick V.]

DW.....are you officially retired?
Seems like you may be considering all the time you have....
I'm sure you're "dirty hands" won't touch the keys.

 

[DWFII]



DW.....are you officially retired?
Seems like you may be considering all the time you have....
I'm sure you're "dirty hands" won't touch the keys.

I must be some kind of Charlie Brown...I know these questions are coming from someone who clearly bears me a certain amount of ill will and I feel a little uneasy regarding the intent.

But still I'm going to answer:

No, I am not fully retired. I am semi-retired meaning that I work roughly six hours a day, more if if I feel like it.

In the last several days, I've made welt from scratch, dyed it and inseamed a pair of shoes by hand (2 hrs each, including the heelseat stitching). Cut, dyed and shaped the heelseat, mounted shanks and the fiddleback shank cover and prepared a set of outsoles for mounting. I also crimped ostrich and elephant vamps for boots and Monday was my half day off.

I had a student most of January and I worked full days both Saturday and Sunday the last two weekends of January making both weeks roughly 56 hours long.

I currently have five pair of boots and four pairs of shoes in process.

My hands are always dirty although I wash them several times a day...with boraxo...just so I don't get dye or handwax on the shoes.

I don't think I punch a time clock for B. Nelson nor come under your purview for management so perhaps you'd like to tell me what you have in mind. You'll forgive me, of course, if I am mistaken, but I am feeling a bit suspicious and am tired of the petty and disingenuous folderol that has gone before.

 

[JubeiSpiegel]

This thread goes nuclear every 5 pages. Have we not explored sole welting (and disrespect) to the point of needless redundancy by now? Can we just agree to but this thread out to pasture already?

 

[Nick V.]

...

I must be some kind of Charlie Brown...I know these questions are coming from someone who clearly bears me a certain amount of ill will and I feel a little uneasy regarding the intent.

But still I'm going to answer:

No, I am not fully retired. I am semi-retired meaning that I work roughly six hours a day, more if if I feel like it.

In the last several days, I've made welt from scratch, dyed it and inseamed a pair of shoes by hand (2 hrs each, including the heelseat stitching). Cut, dyed and shaped the heelseat, mounted shanks and the fiddleback shank cover and prepared a set of outsoles for mounting. I also crimped ostrich and elephant vamps for boots and Monday was my half day off.

I had a student most of January and I worked full days both Saturday and Sunday the last two weekends of January making both weeks roughly 56 hours long.

I currently have five pair of boots and four pairs of shoes in process.

My hands are always dirty although I wash them several times a day...with boraxo...just so I don't get dye or handwax on the shoes.

I don't think I punch a time clock for B. Nelson nor come under your purview for management so perhaps you'd like to tell me what you have in mind. You'll forgive me, of course, if I am mistaken, but I am feeling a bit suspicious and am tired of the petty and disingenuous folderol that has gone before.[/qu

Wow! You've got a lot going on.
Keep turnining them out.

 

[Stirling]

You and I are nothing more than passive observers in this thread. If we are going to contribute a short post, as meaningless as it may be, given the content at hand let's try to ensure we're not moaning about what others are passionately writing. I actually think it's disrespectful.

 

[Stirling]



I had a student most of January and I worked full days both Saturday and Sunday....

I'm so glad to hear that you are ensuring you impart your knowledge to others, hopefully to another generation. Succession of this craft is vital, you're already regrettably an endangered species. Here in the UK despite the renewed interest in bench made shoes, there is little thought going into the future of this magnificent craft.

 

[RogerP]

You and I are nothing more than passive observers in this thread. If we are going to contribute a short post, as meaningless as it may be, given the content at hand let's try to ensure we're not moaning about what others are passionately writing. I actually think it's disrespectful.

Odd. I see a whole lot of disrespect being excused merely because the person dishing it out is "passionate". Please.

 

[Stirling]



Odd.  I see a whole lot of disrespect being excused merely because the person dishing it out is "passionate". Please.

My comment encompassed all the contributors in this thread, who have written thought provoking and informative posts. How you could presume otherwise is bewildering.

 

[RogerP]

My comment encompassed all the contributors in this thread, who have written thought provoking and informative posts. How you could presume otherwise is bewildering.

Because your comment was directed at Nick (it follows his post directly, and commences with "You and I"). Unbewildered now?

 

[Stirling]



Because your comment was directed at Nick (it follows his post directly, and commences with "You and I").  Unbewildered now?

Yep. My post was supposed to be directed at Jubeispiegel not NIck v.

 

[RogerP]

Yep. My post was supposed to be directed at Jubeispiegel not NIck v.

Okay - understood.