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Sole Welting

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Quarantanove, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    No, I don't pick them out. Would that I could. I buy direct from the importer / distributor--like Baker--when I can. That's why I said you have know what quality looks and feels like and not just on the surface. Just because something is labeled "Best Quality in all of England" doesn't make it so. And "knowing" is something that only comes with years of experience.

    You know of course that most bends are rolled...? Meaning that they are compressed between two huge rollers. This is another way to make leather that is marginal look...to the uneducated eye...like it is better quality than it is. Most bends, I buy, are double rolled.

    [That said, rolled bends are also useful especially when dealing with true prime but that's another story. And shoemakers have been doing the same thing on lap irons since time out of mind.]

    Thing is, I can take a piece of #2--"prime" in current usage-- or even #3, and rasp or sand all the loose flesh off it, temper it, and run it through an old 19th.c, manually driven machine I have that does the same thing as the tanners do--rolls and compresses the leather. And if I get my temper correct, such pieces will come out of the rollers harder than anything you've likely ever seen and smooth as a baby's butt on the flesh side--no loose duff. I use them for heel lifts They're not just double rolled, they're triple and quintuple rolled. The point I'm making here is that neither labels nor loose flesh determine quality and to the extent we rely on such superficial...or should I say "super-duper-ficial"?...shortcuts, we undermine our own knowledge/skill base.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  2. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Fishy,

    Jeeze...this is getting complicated. I get headaches when I start doing math...don't get me started! :crackup:


    PS..I think you're right Doh!
     
  3. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    I am entirely confident that Nick and the good people at B. Nelson "know" good quality outsole material when they see it, can appreciate for themselves the difference in quality as between different branded grades, and aren't blindly following lables with no experienced-based evaluation of their own.
     
  4. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    To that end...I can't tell you how many times suppliers sent me samples of a new brand marked super prime which I have reject. They don't bother doing that with me any longer.
    Again I agree just because leather is marked super prime means that it is. Some shops will buy inferior super prime at less of a cost. They save money while the customer thinks he's getting quality and he is not. Those ploys are bad for the industry and I do not support them. I've objected to those tactics with my suppliers in the past.
    All of that is not to say there is a grading system. Could be A,B,C for all I care. But it happens to be super prime, prime etc.
    But yes, DW you have to know what you are doing and equally care about it. Nothing else really matters.
     
  5. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Can't you sand out the JR logo from the soles if that's such a big concern?
     
  6. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    No, it's too deep. Trying to scrape it out with a broken piece of glass...and that will remove less leather and in a more controlled fashion than sandpaper...breaks through the grain and into the corium.

    Doing a beautiful, transparent, clear finish that you can "look into" is a matter of nanometers and care.
     
  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Why do they do that? Are they so venal?

    Or is it just that never having worked with bends they never see where the superprimes are cut from? Never know how easy it is to squeeze that one outsole halfway into the prime area. Or maybe a pair so that they match up....and still mark them superprime.

    Without a frame of reference and experience working with raw materials that aren't labeled for convenience and credulity, it might be easier for all those "other" shops to just accept the label of superprime. You'll admit that if they buy "superprime" they can...as legitimately as anyone else...tout their work as using "superprime." Otherwise it's just "he said, she said." Like we see here sometimes.

    Or perhaps none of those other shops cares...or cares enough to question. Maybe they really are all blinded by greed and ignorance.

    That's the way ignorance works--you (generic "you") just accept the word/reassurance of some someone else, no evidence necessary...mostly because it reinforces what you already want to believe. Because it keeps you snug in your comfort zone--because you don't have to think. Because you don't have to work. Because it takes no energy to to spout nonsense and lots of energy to really familiarize yourself with...ie. "learn"...a subject..
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  8. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    Nick, thanks very much for explaining your process!
     
  9. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I've already explained this. If you bothered to read what I wrote.
     
  10. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    FYI...no need to sand out the logo/stamp. JR's are readily available in "NO Stamp". I prefer not to use them for reasons explained earlier.
     
  11. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Pleasure Sir.
     
  12. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I guess since I don't buy hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cutsoles every week I don't have the "in" that you do.I've only known one period of time...very short...where Rendenbach offered an unstamped or flesh stamped cutsole. When my distributor asked for more they said "no." quite adamantly.

    Fact is if you go to their [COLOR=009900]website[/COLOR] they don't show photos of or make any mention of unstamped cutsole....anywhere on the site. Maybe you have to buy their "super prime" from a separate distributor.

    Or from under a long coat.

    If they're not stamped or labeled how do you know they're Rendenbach?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Read what you wrote.Quoted what you wrote.

    You need a better definition of what it means to "'splain" things, Lucy.
     
  14. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Really? Have you tried other distributors?
    I can help you out with what. And, when you get your bends shipped to you how do you know that they are the best at the time? If you are not happy do you oversea them back? Anyway, why would you care. JR is hard for you to work on.

    I enjoy learning from you.

    Apologies to those fed-up with the dust-ups.
     
  15. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    I doubt that very much, I must say.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  16. dbhdnhdbh

    dbhdnhdbh Senior member

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    DWF and Nick,

    You you find that some customers want soles without the JR brand? DWF, I know that some makers create elaborate patterns on their soles. Do some of your customers want that? Nick, I know you do custom jobs when people request them, more than just replacing the soles. Do people request special designs for which the JR brand would be an impediment?
     
  17. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Is that the best you can do?
     
  18. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Sorry, I meant this.
     
  19. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    No, we use what we we use. The customer knows what they are paying for and, pays for it.
     
  20. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Now, I wish that were true.

    Did you mean the disingenuously camouflaged "windbag" remark, too?

    If you really meant that why the initial snottiness of "is that the best you can do?"

    You've been disputing almost everything I've said since I came on this forum--from the issue of whether a good shoe can be stretched lengthwise (it cannot, not without distortion) to even questioning whether I actually make shoes, IIRC.

    And there's a difference between collecting odd bits of information that you will probably never use and never respect and actually learning. If you learn anything from anyone you can generally have a collegial discussion, the two of you. But that hasn't happened. So don't pretend to any enjoyment.
     

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