Sole Welting

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Quarantanove, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. CalzolaiFeF

    CalzolaiFeF Well-Known Member

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    But they can tell the difference between chinese mass production and good quality semi-bespoke with a distracted look.

    Try doing that with a standard model, bespoke shoe. At least in Italy the usual response is "Wow, is that a Church's?" (we'll talk another time on the complex relationship in Italy between the concept of english shoes and the ideal of perfect shoes [​IMG] )
     


  2. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    I do not dress for the average man thinks; I dress for the gorgeous girls, clients, peers, and myself. In my part of the world, they do notice the details. Even if they don't, I do. And I am intellectually honest about what I own and won't pad my self at the back and convince myself that some subpar constructed item as top notch.
     


  3. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    I may be misunderstanding, but I think we both said the same thing, with regards to quality not being an absolute (when I clarified that it is a spectrum, which can be another way of saying "good, better, best"). I added that after I submitted the original post, so it may have been missed. My apologies.

    The contention that "welt defines quality" does sound like an absolute from the way RogerP phrased it, which is what I was disagreeing with. I agree fully that the inseam is the prime mover, to use your terminology. However, as you said in the post I quoted from weeks ago about Gaziano and Girling being of such high quality elsewhere that it is hard to hold the GY-welting against them, that sounded to me as if you may pick them over an otherwise low quality hand-welted shoe (strictly from an aesthetics point of view, rather than brand name). I may have misunderstood you there though.

    Meermin makes a hand-welted line and a Goodyear-welted line, by the way. They charge slightly more for the hand-welted version.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014


  4. jaywhyy

    jaywhyy Senior member

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    I wasn't devaluing. My point was there isn't much of a difference to the average man in the gap of quality between shoes and the gap of quality between tailoring.
    I'm confident that the average man can tell the difference between a $150 dollar J&M versus Lobb St. James. I'm also confident the average man can tell the difference between C&J benchgrade or Carmina vs Lobb St. James.

    Also the merits of bespoke are past quality and aesthetics. Fit is usually the main reason someone is driven to go bespoke.
     


  5. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Quote:I may be missing something something - wouldn't be the first time - but it sounds to me like you are splitting some very fine hairs when it comes to your characterization of my comments. Do you see a meaningful difference - in the context of this discussion - between: a) The welt is all that matters. and b) The welt is the heart and soul of the shoe and all else is superficial. I don't. But then I wouldn't think that elements which are purely superficial could be said to "matter" much in the context of the assessment of quality. In any event, I have stated that in MY view there is more to the assessment of the quality of the shoe than the welt. I speak only for myself on this. Anyone else is welcome to a different view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014


  6. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    MWS,

    I think I did miss the "quality as a spectrum" bit...I hope it's not because I take the logic and quality of your posts for granted.

    I think G&G bring a lot of finesse to their game. I admire their shoes immensely but I'd rather have one of their handwelted bespoke than RTW. I don't think even if I were upper crust...much less middle class...that I would pay the price for a pair of their RTW

    I did say that it was "hard to hold it against them" and I meant it.

    Aside from the deceptive marketing...that ultimately convinces people that they are getting 'best" quality, when clearly they are not...I don't really hold GY against any of the manufacturers. It is what it is, and as I said they are, even now, paying the price for the hype and the monster that they created.

    I don't speak ill of other makers if I can possibly help it. I don't care about brands...or even the ins and outs of managing or business decisions, if you come right down to it...I am interested in techniques--the pros and cons, the good and bad. That's always been what my posts have been about...even when I stray into somewhat more esoteric musings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014


  7. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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  8. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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  9. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    I won't pay those prices for RTW either. I fall into the same place as you with regard to being interested in techniques and their pros and cons. I can enjoy the beauty of a $1,500 GY-welted shoe all day long, but at the end of the day, I'm far too concerned about durability for the money. I feel the same way about not spending that much on a RTW shoe even if I had the disposable income for it. I would rather have 2, 3, 4 pairs of hand-welted bespoke shoes than 10 pairs of RTW ones.
     


  10. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Quote:I will happily leave you to your examination of semantics. I view the two comments as equivalent. You do not - and I am fine with that. I used the phrase "all that matters" in the context of the assessment of quality. Whether a shoe is ugly or not has nothing to do with quality.
     


  11. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    In a nutshell...I wish I could be as succinct. (Of course even when I am, people start "interpreting." )

    Welt is just a strip of leather. A component. Integral to the technique but not the technique.
     


  12. emptym

    emptym Moderator Moderator

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    As I said, I couldn't remember if my belief that GY was best came from shoe companies or not. But MWS's post below seems to prove beyond a doubt that many GY shoe companies currently claim it is best:

    Thank you for this, MWS. This was very helpful.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014


  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    That' my attitude about G&G I enjoy their beauty. Wouldn't hesitate to "borrow" a few ideas from them. But in the end, I enjoy their HW work so much more even though I can't see the differnce for the highway.

    Visual impact is so much greater when you know that that glitter really is gold. .
     


  14. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    That's exactly right.--the heart and soul. The heart and soul is the inseam, not the welt. The welt is just another component.

    Only those who fail to read or deliberately mis-read are saying that "the welt is all that matters."
     


  15. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    Perhaps I should have said poorly finished, or some otherwise lack of attention to the appearance of the shoe in an objective way (i.e., crooked stitching, missing brogue holes, leather flaws, etc.) rather than ugly (which is subjective). We all agree that those differences in appearance are part of the definition of quality. Does that change how we understand each other's comments? Because that's what I meant. Perhaps ugly wasn't objective enough. I don't think I'm making an issue out of semantics aside from the poor word choice though.
     


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