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Sole Welting

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Quarantanove, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Nick,

    Just curious...under what circumstances would you not use the original holes if you were just replacing welt (not patching the upper)?

    Under what circumstances...not having access to a GY inseaming machine and consequently having to do it by hand...would you not use a lockstitch when replacing welt?

    Sorry if the question seems to come out of left field but the situation just seems so straight-forward and commonsensical, it gave me pause....

    --
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  2. Fishball

    Fishball Senior member

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    hahaha, good questions :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  3. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Hey Fishball,

    Haven't heard from you in a while. How are your bespoke shoemaking "studies" coming along?
     
  4. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I simply answered the question that was asked of me.
    Welting machines are expensive and beyond that they very hard to come by. A few years ago I was able to find one in excellent condition. Before I pulled the trigger I talked over with the guys in the shop. They didn't want it....
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Fishball

    Fishball Senior member

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    Too busy for my "day job," no time to really start a new pair. But will see, may be I will start it again in summer! :)
     
  6. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have also seen other shops stitch a welt with a McKay machine. That's insane but you'd be surprised at how often I've seen it. As you know a McKay is pretty much a chain stitch.
     
  7. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    No harm, no foul...I just wondered

    thanks
     
  8. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yeah, right.
     
  9. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    My "no harm, no foul" was tendered for exactly the same reasons...and optimistically, if not naively...in the same spirit as your "Oops...My bad. Apologies."

    Yes, you were just answering a question...you had every right to do that. And more power to you--at least it is adding something constructive.

    As contrasted with the sycophantic prattling that pops up every now and again.

    If I put you on the spot with my question...it was not my intent.
     
  10. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Didn't put me on the spot at all.
    It's just the tone could have been interpreted as derogatory as evidenced.
    If you are sincere....I accept moving forward.
     
  11. thelonius

    thelonius Senior member

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    DW, Out of interest (please understand this is not expressing any contrary opinion on my part at all on the matter, as I'm not capable of judging), what is there in the Grenson video that indicates to you that the guy is exagerating so much about the age of the shoes being repaired - their general condition, the model, or what ?
     
  12. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    Are you referring to when people thank you for your contributions? Or to when people thank someone other than you for their contributions?
     
  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    What part of "it was not my intent" is not translating? If you feel "put on the spot" that's more on you than on me. My questions may have seemed that way to you but you're not the only one in this conversation and most don't have the knowledge that you have.

    As for tone, I've said it before...if you focus on what is being said rather than how it is being said, a discussion ensues, information is exchange. If not ...then you get the kind of petty and meaningless blather that has characterized so much of this thread.

    Since I usually quote the person I'm responding to, I found it a little hard to believe that you thought I was responding to you rather than MWS when I said "I suspect..."

    I took the time to ask for clarification, but I took your apology as sincere...despite the tone.

    I suspect...I suspect...I may have let my naivete get the better of me.

    --
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  14. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    As I mentioned in a previous post, I haven't been able to hear the video...It breaks up on my computer (or at least it was yesterday--three computers accessing the same network) I kind of assumed it was a problem with the video for everyone.

    All I did was look at the colour of the insole, etc.. I could be wrong in my estimation of the age (an estimate of 5-10 years is like carbon dating--it's hardly zeroing in)--I've seen shoes and particularly boots come in that looked much worse in the space of six months. But it was a guess--always will be (even, to some extent, for the guy at the Grenson factory)...every foot is different, every pair of shoes will react differently to those feet.

    If he says they are 40 years old...and I don't have any reason to doubt the (unheard) video or MWS either...OK, they're 40 years old...proceed from there.

    Cut to the chase...what is the core reality? The whole issue is not when but whether---that's what a shoemaker / craftsman thinks about, prepares for. We don't deliberately...or mindlessly, indifferently...build weakness into a shoe if we know ways to build strength.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  15. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    This is the shoe in question:

    [​IMG]


    Here are more images of that particular style:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It used to be one of Grenson’s bestsellers: 2-tie, plain toed, V-front in antelope leather. That design just screams 60s!

    Judging by the number of these shoes turning up on eBay, Grenson must have produced thousands and thousands of it. (If you want to see more, go to google Images “Grenson antelope shoes”.) Althoug I have no access to Grenson's catalogue, I would presume by the early 70s, production of this design had stopped.

    For today’s taste, this is an extremely old-fashioned and old-mannish design and no manufacturer would have offered shoes like these five or ten years ago, after all, those wicked manufacturers want to sell.
     
  16. thelonius

    thelonius Senior member

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    Last pair looks quite nice to me, but maybe I'm old fashioned. I guess at that time they were still making all the shoes in Northamptonshire.
     
  17. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    So we're down to this again, are we? How many times do I have to say it over the course of six years before it sinks in?! I don't think that manufacturers are wicked nor do I think that they should be torn down the way dams that impede the upstream migration of salmon should be torn down (or should they?)

    But deception and misdirection and expediency at every level are, by definition, part and parcel of promotion and marketing. And manufactures are as dependent upon marketing strategies as a fish is to water.

    If a maker...at any level...knows that the materials or techniques he is using are not as durable or as stable as others he has access to, and he still opts to build in weaknesses ...mostly for the sole purpose of maximizing profit...is that deception or just indifference?

    Or perhaps even wickedness, indeed?

    And if I am asked my opinion about a particular technique or material and I give an honest answer that draws on many years of experience (remember Steven Dutch's injunction that "It's not arrogance to say what you know professionally. It is arrogance to reject expert opinion without having expertise of your own"?)...am I not providing valuable and constructive information?

    And if I allude to the possible ...the potential...weaknesses of a particular material or technique, is that not valuable and constructive information?

    Where, oh where is the wickedness? Really.

    And if someone...with no experience outside of their own tiny, personal and emotional envelope... decides I'm wrong? Someone with no objective basis to evaluate the worth of any information being provided...what can they possibly contribute that is itself objectively valuable or constructive? What possible reason would they have to try?

    There is wickedness in truculence and a contentiousness that exists only for its own sake, as well.

    PS...I am generalizing in the last several paragraphs...not speaking about you. For some, however, the shoe will fit...like the finest bespoke.

    --
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  18. RogerP

    RogerP Senior member

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    bengal-stripe - good info. I can understand why some might want to question the age of the shoe, but I don't see the basis for it.
     
  19. MoneyWellSpent

    MoneyWellSpent Senior member

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    It seems that my question to Nick and the Grenson video I posted have both sparked some emotion that I didn't intend. [​IMG]

    My question to Nick was simply to flesh out another good reason to send shoes to him rather than to the factory for resoling, since his company's more appropriate approach to welt replacement will make a pair of Goodyear-welted shoes last longer (assuming nothing else goes wrong of course) than they would by being sent to the factory. The automatic replacement of the welt by machines, which destroys the uppers at the inseam after a handful of times, makes the lifespan of a pair significantly shorter than it otherwise could be. Personally, I find that to be one of the greatest issues with GY-welted manufacturers, and it really annoys me. They sell you a pair of shoes under the pretense that they can last decades under proper care (which many then aspire to), but they don't tell you that their repair methods will greatly diminish the lifespan no matter how well you look after them. Personally, I find that to be a dirtier secret than the potential for gemming failure.

    The gentleman in the Grenson video definitely says that the pair of shoes is about 40 years old, and he estimates that they've been rebuilt about 5 times if I remember correctly (the computer I'm on right now doesn't have sound, so I can't double check that). I didn't do any background research on the shoe he is showing to confirm the era that they made that style. Rather, I just took his word for it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    It's both significant and worth repeating that most manufactures of GY shoes will void their warranty if you take your shoes to an independent cobbler.

    You have to ask yourself why that is.

    I suspect it is because they are fully aware of the weaknesses inherent in the technique (not to mention the tendency of cobblers to apply their own "unique" fixes to possible problems, and the manufacturers don't want to either deal with, or be responsible for, the results of those "fixes") as well as the knowledge that for best results the insole and inseam must be replaced rather than repaired..

    --
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014

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