Sole Welting

[RogerP]

A different perspective on gemming:

http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2013/04/mythbuster-gemming-is-bad.html

 

[TheWraith]

Well said throughout, Roger P. and thelonius. Nice to see a more balanced view on the subject.

 

[chogall]



A different perspective on gemming:

http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2013/04/mythbuster-gemming-is-bad.html

"Sure, cutting the holdfast by hand and then welling by hand is much better, but it's simply not practical for selling shoes at a reasonable price."

There. He is in agreement that hand welted shoes are better. And not just better, but MUCH better. And his reason for GY welted shoes is only economics.

 

[RogerP]

Well said throughout, Roger P. and thelonius. Nice to see a more balanced view on the subject.

Cheers.

 

[TheWraith]



"Sure, cutting the holdfast by hand and then welling by hand is much better, but it's simply not practical for selling shoes at a reasonable price."

There. He is in agreement that hand welted shoes are better. And not just better, but MUCH better. And his reason for GY welted shoes is only economics.

Nobody here said that hand welting isn't better, isn't the best. We're just saying that GY isn't as dreadful as some here claim it to be. That is all!

 

[DWFII]



Nobody here said that hand welting isn't better, isn't the best. We're just saying that GY isn't as dreadful as some here claim it to be. That is all!

Well, the problem with that is that no one here has said that GY is guaranteed to blow out within the first ten times wearing...or the next 100 or the 100 after that.

I certainly haven't.

It's a matter of good, better, best. I've always said that, too..

That said (and I have), GY has a very real potential to blow out, and rot, and fail. Handwelted less so...by an order of magnitude. To deny the photos above is to deny reality; to live in lala land. It's like life--you never expect it to happen to you...until it does.

Now who posts to StyleForum? Think about it. Do you want the best? Do you want the best you can get for your money?

They may be two different things esp. for those people who look for quality for its own sake, who associate quality with elegance, and refinement...and Style. Hence...wait for it...StyleForum.

Or they might be one and the same for those on a budget or in college or who just don't give a damn about shoes, or quality, as long as...from the highway...it looks like it might be quality.

And if a fellow is paying near-bespoke prices for merely good, it's entirely understandable that he would feel a little defensive when he finds that out.

The best way to put a shoe together; The best way to avoid any potential problems; To prevent potential distortion (the English shoe above was distorting in the arch area); To ensure that it can be repaired without having to replace critical structural elements that have already adapted to your foot...such as the footbed... is handwelted. Period.

The cheapest way to put together a shoe that will convince a customer that it looks sufficiently enough like a high quality bespoke shoe that no one will be able to see the difference...from the highway...is GY. Period.

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[RogerP]

Nobody here said that hand welting isn't better, isn't the best. We're just saying that GY isn't as dreadful as some here claim it to be. That is all!

Exactly correct. Few would dispute that hand-welting has its advantages. But there seems to me that there is no empirical support for the proposition that gemming failure is rampant in GY welted shoes. And there is a long and not entirely rational stretch between claiming that hand-welting is superior and suggesting that GY welting necessarily reflects shoddy construction prone to catastrophic failure.

 

[dtauton]

The issue of GY vs hand welting is one I have been unable to reach a firm conclusion on.
So I dedicated my time to a more manageable problem, and was able to determine that only 556 876 angels can dance on the head of a pin. Attempts to add a 556 877-th angel unavoidably lead to the fall, due to pride

 

[TheWraith]



Exactly correct.  Few would dispute that hand-welting has its advantages.  But there seems to me that there is no empirical support for the proposition that gemming failure is rampant in GY welted shoes.  And there is a long and not entirely rational stretch between claiming that hand-welting is superior and suggesting that GY welting necessarily reflects shoddy construction prone to catastrophic failure.

Well said again, Roger P.

Everyone and their dog knows that hand welting is the best. I know that, Roger P. knows that, trelonius knows that. That's never been an issue. Of course it's the best. But, in saying that, none of us go around trashing GY either. Yes it's not as good as hand welting. But it's not prone to rampant failure, it's not a garbage method of welting that (only) some here claim it is, either. It's a perfectly fine method of welting a shoe and is of a very good quality for most people (certainly those that cannot afford the very best of hand welting).

 

[Nick V.]

In the past I have commented that IMO the argument of gemming vs. hand-stitched is over-rated.
We do about 30 pair of high-grade re-crafts per day. In my 40 years I have seen tens of thousands of pair. They range anywhere from $15,000.00 custom made Kiton crocs. To J&M's. Retail price ranges on an average pair is between $600.00 and $1500.00. Of course hand stitched is better. Anytime an upper can be attached directly to the welt it will be more secure than using an extra component. That's only common sense. However, the amount of times that we condemned a pair of shoes for re-crafting because of gemming failure is so insignificant I don't even consider it a factor.
If fact, I've seen many more pair that the welt thread failed -or- the holes in the upper that the welt goes through tore than gemming failure.

Sorry but I just don't get the argument here....

 

[RogerP]

In the past I have commented that IMO the argument of gemming vs. hand-stitched is over-rated.
We do about 30 pair of high-grade re-crafts per day. In my 40 years I have seen tens of thousands of pair. They range anywhere from $15,000.00 custom made Kiton crocs. To J&M's. Retail price ranges on an average pair is between $600.00 and $1500.00. Of course hand stitched is better. Anytime an upper can be attached directly to the welt it will be more secure than using an extra component. That's only common sense. However, the amount of times that we condemned a pair of shoes for re-crafting because of gemming failure is so insignificant I don't even consider it a factor.
If fact, I've seen many more pair that the welt thread failed -or- the holes in the upper that the welt goes through tore than gemming failure.

Sorry but I just don't get the argument here....

Thank you for that Nick. No, really.

 

[TheWraith]

Well said, Nick.

 

[JubeiSpiegel]

I'm glad an appropriate thread has been found for everyone's trolling pleasure.

Personally, i do acknowledge that hand welted is a better construction method than GYW. I do appreciate all your knowledge and willingness to share your experience DW. I have only ever had issues with others that choose to be handwelted elitists, and can't help but make snide comments against GYW shoes at every opportunity.

Not everyone chooses to drink champagne, that is all I'm trying to say. That's my small comment on the matter...

 

[DWFII]

First off there was no argument until certain people came face to face with what they already knew in their guts...what, as I said before, they really didn't want to hear--namely that GY construction is inferior to hand-welted.

These people don't read other people's posts (because they don't want to hear it) so it comes as no surprise that they don't even read their own (and I have no expectations this post will be read for the purpose of understanding and not just scoring points or seeking leverage, either.)

But look at the last page (re-read your own comments)...post after post saying some variation of "Yes, handwelted is better than GY." Exactly what I've been saying all along.

All the rest is just excuses.

What is the difference in technique between a $100.00 pair GY welted shoes and a $1000.00 pair? In terms of technique...the correct answer and the answer that is being given over and over again right here in this thread is "Nothing!!"

There. is. no. significant. difference in the techniques used to assemble a $100.00 GY shoe and a $1000.00 GY shoe.

What is the difference in the quality of materials between a $100.00 GY welted shoe and a $1000.00 GY welted shoe? Very damn little and a whole lot less than $900.00.

Now what is the difference between a GY welted shoe and a handwelted shoe?

Goodyear:

• A significantly less expensive and objectively lower grade of insole material and a good chance that it may not even be leather but leatherboard--the functional equivalent of particle board.
  
• A strip / mesh of linen or cotton cemented to that insole to form a prominent ridge through which a chain stitch seam is made for the purpose of connecting the lining, upper and welt. What was, or is, used, by way of wax, to seal the holes and secure the stitch tends to be minimal and/or ineffective for either purpose. Under the best of circumstances this seam is fragile and temporary until the outsole is sewn to the welt. [And BTW, FYI, a chain stitch is one where if one stitch is broken or slipped, all the adjacent stitches are in jeopardy. And eventually the whole seam.]

Hand welted:

• An objectively excellent, if not best quality, insole of relatively greater thickness and integrity than is used in GY, attached in a leather-to-leather connection created by a thread that is waxed with antibacterial resins and which will not only fully seal and plug the inseam holes, but lock each stitch in place. All done with a shoemaker's stitch which, by contrast to a chain stitch or even a lock-stitch, effectively prevents significant unraveling of the inseam, even if more than one stitch is broken.

There is none so deaf they can't even hear their own words... "Everyone and their dog knows that hand welting is the best."

Yes, we do...you're absolutely correct. No ands, ifs, buts, or other excuses.

--

 

[DWFII]



I'm glad an appropriate thread has been found for everyone's trolling pleasure.

Personally, i do acknowledge that hand welted is a better construction method than GYW. I do appreciate all your knowledge and willingness to share your experience DW. I have only ever had issues with others that choose to be handwelted elitists, and can't help but make snide comments against GYW shoes at every opportunity.

Not everyone chooses to drink champagne, that is all I'm trying to say. That's my small comment on the matter...

I appreciate that and I have repeatedly said that I understand that handwelted is not for everyone...not only because of the cost but perhaps also because the issue of quality is beside the point for many... .

I have not directly raised the issue of GY or gemming in a more than incidental fashion for a long, long time. This thread is a prime example--it was dead a year ago. I did not revive it.

Here's another--in the Gaziano and Girling thread, page 690 post 10340...a thread where in post #10341 I said:

Just because a shoe is GY doesn't mean that it is not good quality in the overall scheme of things. G&G may be GY but they retain so many other aspects that we associate with quality that it's hard to hold the GY against them ...

So...don't let best be the enemy of the good. Despite what you may think (if you haven't been paying particular attention) I, for one, have never said it was and I try deliberately and conscientiously to not even suggest it.
--

That was three days ago. Short attentions spans, apparently.

Snide is where you find it. And I suspect that in many cases you have to go looking for it.

But then that's damn near the definition of "trolling," isn't it?

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