Sole Welting

[TheWraith]



Oh I've seen plenty BS written on the subject, that's for sure.

+1

 

[Nick V.]

Pretty much what I have been saying all the while:

http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2013/04/mythbuster-gemming-is-bad.html

 

[TheWraith]

^ Agreed, Nick, thanks for sharing.

It's a myth that just keeps on keeping on, I'm sad to see.

 

[kentyman]

Good to know. I haven't worn them outside even once, so I'm glad I asked. Thank you.

Do you still feel covering the entire outsole is necessary? There's something about leaving the arch leather exposed that looks better to me, though I understand this would allow moisture in through the arch stitches if I was ever really tromping around. That's not my plan, however.

I took the shoes in to a cobbler by my house, who also happens to be one of the highest-rated in town, to ask about a topy (which I pronounced "top-ee" and he pronounced "tope-e", so I guess I'll follow his lead).

I mentioned that I thought the shoes were Blake/Rapid but they were just Blake, and he already seemed confused. Not a good start. When I explained the difference, he said "Oh, you mean just McKay vs. welt-stitched [I think that's what he said]". I explained that Blake sold the patent to McKay so they're basically synonymous, and that that extra stitch through the welt is called a rapid stitch. He quickly noticed and agreed that the Bonwelt on it is just a faux welt.

I mentioned that I thought a topy would be useful since it's hard to find McKay stitchers. It turns out he has an old McKay machine that they've had 60-70 years since back when his father owned the shop. He believes it's the only one in town. Good to know that there's one in town if I ever need it.

Anyway, I decided to pass on the topy and instead keep these as dry weather shoes after all. But I wanted to come back thank you all for your insight and knowledge of shoe construction (he asked if my father was in the business based on what I seemed to understand), and to share my experience with my local cobbler.

 

[RogerP]

Pretty much what I have been saying all the while:

http://www.theshoesnobblog.com/2013/04/mythbuster-gemming-is-bad.html

Exactly.

 

[emptym]

Sigh. This again, huh?

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I read the same type of nonsensical language that DW describes when I read the article.  The person's reasoning for why the gemming won't fail doesn't make sense, or support the claim, and I'm not even a shoemaker, I just enjoy studying shoe construction.

Whether the claim that they've never had failure is true or not, the reason he gives for why it won't happen isn't logical.  It reminds me of the old days in school when you had to show your work on your math problems.  Even if you arrived at the correct answer, but your work didn't make sense, you lost points (or worse, you were accused of cheating).

Also, the statement that they've never had a pair of shoes returned due to rib failure doesn't really negate any of the past conversations on this topic.  It has been concluded that even if your shoe does experience gemming failure, the wearer isn't necessarily likely to ever realize it as long as they send it back to the factory for recrafting.  The recrafting department will silently put the shoe back on it's original last and re-glue any separated gemming during the repair without ever saying anything.  This isn't medicine, where you can request your medical records and find out what's wrong with you after the doctor visit, or even a car mechanic where they itemize the repairs for you.  They just repair the shoes and send them back.

However, if you send your shoes with some hidden gemming failure to a local cobbler who doesn't know what he's doing, you may have a very different end result.

It's also worth noting that gemming damage can happen both inside and outside the factory.  We've discussed the outside the factory possibilities ad nauseam.  But what about the inside the factory damage during repairs?  When they remove the old sole and scrape out the old cork, they are using a blunt instrument (like a large flat-head screw driver or blunt chisel) with a good bit of force.  This scraping commonly damages the gemming, and they just go about regluing it in normal fashion.

I just don't think the factories take any notice of small areas of gemming separation, and as such, they don't classify it as "failure."

^Well said, as usual. You make two good points imo:

1) They define gemming failure as "the sole and uppers of the shoe supposedly part company catastrophically with the insole." DW has never defined it as such. This is a lot closer to the standard Vox jokingly set when talking about gemming "explosions." If one defines it at such an extreme, I can believe it doesn't happen. If it's defined more reasonably as the ribbing separating at places, such that parts or the whole thing needs replacing (as DW does), I'm sure it happens at some frequency. What exactly the frequency is, I don't know, and I doubt anyone knows.

2) They say no one has sent in a shoe for this reason. As you mention now and DW has in the past, a consumer would rarely if ever notice the problem, even if s/he were aware it existed, which almost no one does. SF'ers pride ourselves on our knowledge of shoes, but virtually no one knew it was possible till DW discussed it.

Who manufactures gemming? Can we start buying it up like crazy driving the cost up where it is no longer profitable for these evil-doers to use it?

LOL

^ Agreed, Nick, thanks for sharing.

It's a myth that just keeps on keeping on, I'm sad to see.

What exactly is the myth? The only myths imo are those of two false dichotomies: gemming is perfect or gemming explodes. No one believes either of those myths. Justin's post certainly doesn't advocate blindly for one or the other. It is fair imo, arguing for the superiority of hand-welting and the suitability of GY welting. A good line from his page that summarizes it imo is this:
"Sure, cutting the holdfast by hand and then welting by hand is much better, but it is simply not practical for selling shoes at a reasonable price when manufactured from a country that pays their workers justified wages."

 

[TheWraith]

^ The myth is that gemming is as bad as some make out. Yes, as everyone ad mauseum has said (including myself, numerous times), hand welting is better. But GYW isn't as bad as some here claim it is. Common sense, that is all for goodness sake!

I took the shoes in to a cobbler by my house, who also happens to be one of the highest-rated in town, to ask about a topy (which I pronounced "top-ee" and he pronounced "tope-e", so I guess I'll follow his lead).

I mentioned that I thought the shoes were Blake/Rapid but they were just Blake, and he already seemed confused. Not a good start. When I explained the difference, he said "Oh, you mean just McKay vs. welt-stitched [I think that's what he said]". I explained that Blake sold the patent to McKay so they're basically synonymous, and that that extra stitch through the welt is called a rapid stitch. He quickly noticed and agreed that the Bonwelt on it is just a faux welt.

I mentioned that I thought a topy would be useful since it's hard to find McKay stitchers. It turns out he has an old McKay machine that they've had 60-70 years since back when his father owned the shop. He believes it's the only one in town. Good to know that there's one in town if I ever need it.

Anyway, I decided to pass on the topy and instead keep these as dry weather shoes after all. But I wanted to come back thank you all for your insight and knowledge of shoe construction (he asked if my father was in the business based on what I seemed to understand), and to share my experience with my local cobbler.

Nice to read the conclusion to your story, kentyman. Thanks for sharing

 

[DWFII]



^ The myth is that gemming is as bad as some make out. Yes, as everyone ad mauseum has said (including myself, numerous times), hand welting is better. But GYW isn't as bad as some here claim it is. Common sense, that is all for goodness sake!

Wrong again. The myth...as emptym pointed out, as many other have also done, repeatedly...is that anyone has ever said, or even implied, anything remotely close to the Chicken Little fantasy you and others have created in your own minds and become fixated on. A fantasy that you cling to because it gives you something to chew on.

The myth is...just as in this thread and your response to emptym... is that you and others would be gracious enough to extend to others the courtesy that you expect for yourselves. To read, to listen, to think objectively about any issue.

You didn't read emptym's post. You haven't really read anyone's post. You scan for buzzwords and what you perceive as points of leverage in order to score points or continue the argument.

And you sanctimoniously and religiously pat all your fellow travelers on the back for echoing your hysterical notion that the sky in falling.

Common sense? If it's common sense, in this case it's as common as intransigence. It's as common as ignorance. It's as common as "don't confuse me with the facts."

--

 

[emptym]

I think he thinks your position is that the sky is falling.

I don't think anyone actually thinks the sky if falling.

And imo it would be best if everyone treated each other this way and tried to read the best into each other's posts rather than the worst.

 

[DWFII]



I think he thinks your position is that the sky is falling.

I don't think anyone actually thinks the sky if falling.

And imo it would be best if everyone treated each other this way and tried to read the best into each other's posts rather than the worst.

No doubt. But as you yourself pointed out...independently...I've never said anything like that. I've never said the things he and others attribute to me in this discussion. It is a fantasy and a myth that they are perpetuating.

 

[RogerP]

^ Agreed, Nick, thanks for sharing.

It's a myth that just keeps on keeping on, I'm sad to see.

I certainly understand exactly what myth you are referring to. But I don't see much point in revisiting ground well covered.

 

[TheWraith]

^ Agreed, Roger.

 

[Exdeath]

Gemming killed my dog and set my spouse on fire.

Seriously, though, all this puritanical artisanal quibbling is silly. But perhaps I'd feel less so if I actually owned any ungemmed shoes and had a compulsive need to justify why I spent several thou' on something besides 'it looks good'.

Most shoes here will outlast their owners.

 

[patrickBOOTH]



Most shoes here will outlast their owners.

None of mine, albeit one pair have lasted more than five years. For various reasons.

Just another made-up conversation we sold ourselves.

 

[Exdeath]

None of mine, albeit one pair have lasted more than five years. For various reasons.

Just another made-up conversation we sold ourselves.

I figure most people here get tired, sell them, and buy new ones before they hit that point. At least for the non-bespoke stuff.

What happens in five years to damage shoes so catastrophically they can't be recrafted? Do people wearing cleats step on your feet a lot?