• STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

Software Engineering Bootcamps

papa kot

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
359
Reaction score
65
Boot camps won't teach you what you can learn on your own. The fact that you have to go to a bootcamp to learn programming tells me that software development may not be your strongest move, as most, if not all, good developers I know picked it up as a hobby with minimal formal training. In fact most advance computer science courses assume that you can program, so you basically apply your programming skills to whatever problems professors throw at you. In many cases they won't even care what language or tools you use as long as you can prove your knowledge.

Last thought: Software development today is quite similar to construction. You use the blocks somebody creates to develop software. If you do not have ideas, then even the most sophisticated development skills won't bring your pleasure, as you're going to march to the drumbeat of some other folks (much like a construction worker works on a vision created by an architect).
 
Last edited:

sinnedk

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
14,546
Reaction score
3,308

Boot camps won't teach you what you can learn on your own. The fact that you have to go to a bootcamp to learn programming tells me that software development may not be your strongest move, as most, if not all, good developers I know picked it up as a hobby with minimal formal training. In fact most advance computer science courses assume that you can program, so you basically apply your programming skills to whatever problems professors throw at you. In many cases they won't even care what language or tools you use as long as you can prove your knowledge. 

Last thought: Software development today is quite similar to construction. You use the blocks somebody creates to develop software. If you do not have ideas, then even the most sophisticated development skills won't bring your pleasure, as you're going to march to the drumbeat of some other folks (much like a construction worker works on a vision created by an architect). 

Part 1. Wrong, most advance CS courses focus on a language. Source: I took and am taking advanced CS courses
Part 2. I agree about the construction part but the rest of your post doesn't seem to make a point.

Your post seems to be pointing out a lot of difficulties in pursuing a developer career and is quite discouraging. Rather than tell people that bootcamps aren't worth it because you need to be able to learn on your own provide them a solution. I am one of those people that doesn't learn well on their own. I know my self well enough to know i need structure; hence, i pursued college courses and I learned a lot. I also considered the bootcamp but trusted my skills and found work as a dev.

"The fact that you have to go to a bootcamp to learn programming tells me that software development may not be your strongest move as most, if not all, good developers I know picked it up as a hobby with minimal formal training"

1. You cannot go to the bootcamp to learn programming. It is not a 0 - 100 course, its more like 25 - 75. They take people that already know the basics and program a little.
2. I know plenty of devs that did not do this as a hobby.
3. This statement is really narrow-minded. You cannot expect everyone to learn the same way and discourage a method that can take them to a career they want.
 

papa kot

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
359
Reaction score
65
@sinnedk--Why don't you ask more Bay Area software engineers to chime in?

If your advanced CS courses focus on a language, you're taking courses in a wrong school and you're not getting your money back. The purpose of any advance CS course is to broaden your horizons. Teachings that involve computer vision, security, compilers, operating systems, machine learning and so on are language agnostic. It really does not matter that language you use to find a loop in a graph, reduce grammar, build an index or implement El Gamal. Of course certain things are easier to implement in specific languages, but that's a different conversation.

I am sorry that my honest opinion irked you. I am certainly not discouraging your to pursue any career you like and I am simply highlighting the trend that I have observed. Good luck.
 
Last edited:

ipractice

Distinguished Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
1,050
Reaction score
302
I've had a chance to speak to many bay area engineers... in fact, I speak to many of them on a daily basis. It's part of my current job. They're regarded as some of the brightest engineers in the bay area as well, or at the very least ones with some of the most qualified resumes in the field. There's some pretty smart people at Google, and I'm lucky enough in my position to speak to engs from a variety of departments and projects. They tell me to be passionate about programming and do it for the right reasons - use whatever method you need to and learn. The money, jobs, and opportunity will follow quite easily if you can get that down.

I have to agree with sinned. You bring up some valid points, but to think that it's the only way you can become a programmer is unfair. It reminds me of the elitism that plagues programming and has barred it from becoming a more widely pursed field. People learn in different ways. You don't have to follow a strict set of instructions in order to be passionate about something. Your suggestion may have been possible when I was 16 years old with all the time in the world -- but I work a full time job now. For me it's all about efficiency. Yes, without a doubt I can learn what these schools teach on my own. But I highly doubt I would be able to do it within the same timeframe. Is having the information organized and planned out for me worth the $17.5k admission price? Maybe not for you, but I can find value in it.

Also, as an update I was suppose to apply the HackReactor later this month. But due to some fortunate events and strange circumstances my current job gave me a significant increase in pay. I never imagined I would be able to move up and make this much so quickly, so it caught me by surprised and opened up a new opportunity. I'm still learning here and able to advance my CS skills so I'll be sticking around for awhile longer. I may try to apply to HackReactor's first cohort in 2015, or stick to my original plan on the September 2014 cohort. Not quite sure yet. Either way I'm happy to advancing my career in the right direction.
 
Last edited:

sinnedk

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
14,546
Reaction score
3,308

@sinnedk--Why don't you ask more Bay Area software engineers to chime in? 

If your advanced CS courses focus on a language, you're taking courses in a wrong school and you're not getting your money back. The purpose of any advance CS course is to broaden your horizons. Teachings that involve computer vision, security, compilers, operating systems, machine learning and so on are language agnostic. It really does not matter that language you use to find a loop in a graph, reduce grammar, build an index or implement El Gamal. Of course certain things are easier to implement in specific languages, but that's a different conversation. 

I am sorry that my honest opinion irked you. I am certainly not discouraging your to pursue any career you like and I am simply highlighting the trend that I have observed. Good luck. 

I have 5 engineers on my gchat right now and based on hours of conversation I think you are too stubborn in your opinions and wrong.

You did irk me because you are providing bad info. @ipractice and myself at the beginning of this thread were looking for "entry level" jobs. The courses you describe are masters level. I assume Standford, Carnigie Mellon, MIT may teach some of that to an undergrad but we did not have those options. Maybe you did.

"computer vision, security, compilers, operating systems, machine learning" - Great things to know but not practical by any means and won't necessarily land you a job.
 

Uccle

New Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2014
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
"computer vision, security, compilers, operating systems, machine learning" - Great things to know but not practical by any means and won't necessarily land you a job.
Courses mentioned are pure CS (as opposed to software engineering) and are seen in undergrad.
 

candoheaded

New Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
me too, I think back end will be kinda boring and you can leave that to the number crunching guys. With front end, ui and mobile you will be prepared for 3 hot areas and get paid pretty well with any of them. Think of it like this most smart business have mobile apps and websites.thanks
 
Last edited:

sinnedk

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
14,546
Reaction score
3,308
I do web back end, not much number crunching honestly. But I also work with front end as well. Just being able to pass the data and work with it will be good.

Also most complex algorithms and calculations are online and in books. Knowing how to apply them is the true key.
 

mythikal

Active Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
25
Reaction score
2
Interesting discussion. I'm currently doing project management and business analysis stuff for my current company but I want to start a new side business which requires programming. I did really well in my CS classes in high school and college, and do some basic coding like email signatures for my current company. I'm curious if it's worth it for me to learn to do the coding myself or to hire a developer? How quickly can one expect to become a junior architect from these bootcamps? Is it really just 12 weeks? I can't really take off from work to do the bootcamp so I was wondering if anyone took the online self paced classes that Stanford is offering?
 

sinnedk

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Nov 15, 2010
Messages
14,546
Reaction score
3,308

Interesting discussion. I'm currently doing project management and business analysis stuff for my current company but I want to start a new side business which requires programming. I did really well in my CS classes in high school and college, and do some basic coding like email signatures for my current company. I'm curious if it's worth it for me to learn to do the coding myself or to hire a developer? How quickly can one expect to become a junior architect from these bootcamps? Is it really just 12 weeks? I can't really take off from work to do the bootcamp so I was wondering if anyone took the online self paced classes that Stanford is offering?

Junior architect? Junior developer is where you start a junior architect should have been a senior dev beforehand. Hiring a dev to tutor you may work but its costly. I recommend either college courses or the online courses you mentioned. The bootcamps are super expensive and you will not be a good dev without having some fundamentals. I recommend some courses then a bootcamp maybe.
 

mythikal

Active Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2014
Messages
25
Reaction score
2
Junior architect? Junior developer is where you start a junior architect should have been a senior dev beforehand. Hiring a dev to tutor you may work but its costly. I recommend either college courses or the online courses you mentioned. The bootcamps are super expensive and you will not be a good dev without having some fundamentals. I recommend some courses then a bootcamp maybe.
Perfect! I was thinking about taking some classes to see my affinity for it. That and I should have at least some understanding of what's going on. Thanks for being so helpful
 

larryr

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
862
Reaction score
469
I'd recommend either hiring a group of developers or at least sitting with someone who has a lot of experience in the field to steer you in the right direction. Big mistake when developing an application is misjudging what it takes, in my experience hiring a single person is almost guaranteed to fail.

Custom application development isn't always necessary, there are plenty of products/frameworks on the market that will make you life a lot easier and provide a starting point. Maybe there is something out there you just need to configure? You probably wouldn't be familiar with these unless you've been in the field.

I've been programming/leading/architect for ~15years, own two businesses now, on service business and one product. Let me know if you need some free advice.
 
Last edited:

Featured Sponsor

What's your favorite type of loafer?

  • Tassel loafers

  • Penny loafers

  • Horsebit loafers

  • Kiltie loafers

  • I hate loafers


Results are only viewable after voting.

Related Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
421,202
Messages
9,056,205
Members
190,633
Latest member
robj83

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by

Top