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So is this a fake watch....

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Matt, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    well i had to dismiss everyone early today, there was a fire in a building a few hundred meters away, and so they cut off the power.

    Work from home, go on, off you go....

    So on the way home I pull into this side street full of antique places, one of those streets that I had always wanted to explore and never gotten around to

    And I see this really really nice vintage Patek Phillipe watch.

    'bao nhieu?'
    '$120'

    one of my staff - who lives just in behind there - sees me and pulls in on her motorbike

    haggling ensues

    staff offering $30, woman asking now for $50 (not a bad instant come down from $120!). Finally employee gets all uppity and tells me Im not allowed to buy it for more than $30 and I have to leave now.

    OK. Matt leaves with nothing. All Vietnamese people in the vicinty save face.

    My wrist is cold.

    But....to the point of my question.

    These watches are Patek covers - real ones - brought in by the French 50, 60 yrs ago. Watches died, wound up in shops like this that replace their innards with crap from China. Japan if I am lucky.

    So...is this a fake watch?

    Some excerpts from my chat with J on the topic as thoughtstarters...

    Matt: so is a real case with crap movement a fake watch?
    J: you cant ask me about watches man
    J: if they look good i like them
    J: if not i dont give a ----
    Matt: my question was 'if the outside of product X is real and the inside is not is the item counterfeit'
    J: there is no good answer for that
    J: if you try and sell it as a patek then yeah
    J: it may have value just in the case though

    --

    J: real always looks better than fake
    J: even if you cant tell and no one can
    J: it just does
    J: see that was my question.. why shouldnt i buy a good replica
    J: of something that looks awesome
    Matt: ahh
    Matt: see this is where we drift back to my watch
    J: there is no good answer
    Matt: as the appearance is real
    Matt: case is real
    J: yeah if it works and looks the same
    J: who gives a ----
    Matt: yeah i know, but the internet exists so two dipshits can debate pointless crap ad nauseum
     
  2. Nick M

    Nick M Senior member

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    Provided it stays on your wrist, it's real.

    But if you tried to sell it, it would be a fake.

    The watch exists in a quantum superposition. It is Schrödinger's Patek.




    Let's say you bought a real Patek, wore it until the insides died, and then got it fixed at the watch place in the mall, where a Chinese movement was installed. I'd still call it a real Patek, because it's your Patek.

    Again, unless you tried to sell it. Because the watch weirdos are all about the movement.
     
  3. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    It's always about the movement. Cases, and dials are merely tangential although certain aesthetic points command higher prices as in tear-drop lugs or Mercedes hands.

    Many old watches have had their cases changed or redone. This is similar to when people would have very expensive jewelry reset by the famous jewelry houses while today these things are sacred.
     
  4. v0rtex

    v0rtex Senior member

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    Matt: so is a real case with crap movement a fake watch?

    Depends if your primary purpose when consuming luxury goods is for self-esteem (internal) reasons, or as a status symbol to impress other people (external reasons).

    If the latter, for all intents and purposes it's "real" as it performs the same function as a real Patek. But for the former, it's a fake as it doesn't give you the same internal sensations that wearing the real deal would.

    Or is that too philosophical? [​IMG]
     
  5. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    You might as well buy one of those quartz things offered by every high-end watchmaker now.
     
  6. Nick M

    Nick M Senior member

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    You might as well buy one of those quartz things offered by every high-end watchmaker now.
    Can you get one for $50?
     
  7. Tomasso

    Tomasso Senior member

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    So...is this a fake watch?


    If you were to slip a Ferrari body onto a VW, would it then be a Ferrari?
     
  8. RJman

    RJman Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    If you were to slip a Ferrari body onto a VW, would it then be a Ferrari?
    Isn't that how they make Bentleys these days? [​IMG]
     
  9. Jovan

    Jovan Senior member

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    This is why I wear digital watches. [​IMG]
     
  10. TCN

    TCN Senior member

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    If you were to slip a Ferrari body onto a VW, would it then be a Ferrari?

    Interesting analogy on a few different fronts. Since Ferrari folks keep such close track of both chassis and engines (all recorded), it would certainly be lauded as a Ferrari body. I've seen a few Ferraris advertised as Chassis #XXXX but Engine #YYYY.

    The other thing I was wondering about this watch deal, is "how sure are we that this is a real Patek case? A genuine Patek vintage case and dial would be worth a hell of a lot more than $50; I don't think the French brought that many in with them, did they?
     
  11. Strokeman

    Strokeman Active Member

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    Provided it stays on your wrist, it's real.

    But if you tried to sell it, it would be a fake.

    The watch exists in a quantum superposition. It is Schrödinger's Patek.


    Ah ha ha ha - post of the year! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. Film Noir Buff

    Film Noir Buff Senior member

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    If you were to slip a Ferrari body onto a VW, would it then be a Ferrari?

    I think Helga would say zat youd pimped your auto.
     
  13. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

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    I think Helga would say zat youd pimped your auto.

    [​IMG]


    "OOOOh snap! Vee dropped it like its hott!"


    As to the watch, almost ubndoubtebly a fake. However, the movement inside and possibly the case may be of quality on their own accord. You never know. If I had found an obvious fake like that that contained a good movement I could easily see myself removing from the dial all references to PP and using it on its own merits.For instance a number of I believe Rolex fakes (of the type that you need a good amount of knowledge to distinguish) contain Seagull ST19 movements which are very high quality column wheel chrono movements - assuming they did not swipe from the Seagull factory the rejects, that is!
     
  14. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    Can you get one for $50?
    I saw a new with box Bulgari for $300.
     
  15. Matt

    Matt Senior member

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    well this turned out to be an interesting little thread. I am pretty sure that Schrodingers Patek is a real case by the way - there were a lot of rich Frenchmen here once upon a time (and even poor Frenchmen sometimes have nice watches - has ernest taught us nothing?) - and then they did kinda drop everything and leave in a rush... In any case, she had a fake Rolex there and tried to sell it to me immediately telling me it was a copy. Patek real old, Rolex new copy. You buy Rolex ok? BTW the case is mightily beat up, it is showing 50 yrs of wear - were they even making fake Pateks 50 yrs ago? An interesting side development though. I went back to that street last night looking for vintage DE razors - more out of curiosity than anything else - and found a store that has a shelf full of faces and cases and hands and so forth - you can make your own vintage watch of legitimate vintage parts. I thought that was interesting, may give it a go when I get back from my France trip in a couple of weeks. If I am really lucky, I could even get Quartz movement [​IMG]
     
  16. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I fail to see how that is different from a new panarai watch - which is basically a replica of a watch made 50 years ago, but that has purchased the right to use the name form the legitimate heir to the name.

    if you are not interested in the movements (which I am not either, by the way) and you are not trying to sell it, then using a vintage case with a new moevement makes a lot of sense to me.

    enjoy
     
  17. Lucky Strike

    Lucky Strike Senior member

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    I am pretty sure that Schrodingers Patek is a real case by the way - there were a lot of rich Frenchmen here once upon a time (and even poor Frenchmen sometimes have nice watches - has ernest taught us nothing?) - and then they did kinda drop everything and leave in a rush...
    This reminds of those scenes with the beleaguered and quietly desperate French colonials in Apocalypse Now. My favourite part of the film, actually.
     
  18. Girardian

    Girardian Senior member

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    If you're buying the watch as a work of art to be enjoyed for what it is, this requires that the artestry of watchmaking, the movement, be intact.

    If you're buying the watch as a work of art to be enjoyed for what it appears to be, the movement may be replaced.

    If you're buying the watch as a work of 'art' to be enjoyed for what it is not, the entire thing can be a replica.
     
  19. Lucky Strike

    Lucky Strike Senior member

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    If you're buying the watch as a work of art to be enjoyed for what it is, this requires that the artestry of watchmaking, the movement, be intact. If you're buying the watch as a work of art to be enjoyed for what it appears to be, the movement may be replaced. If you're buying the watch as a work of 'art' to be enjoyed for what it is not, the entire thing can be a replica.
    True, but you could also think of it as a piece of history - I think the watch, with the fifty years old PP case, and a new quartz (or Chinese Seagull) movement sums up the last fifty years of Vietnamese history beautifully. In a historical context, the watch tells a story that is far more interesting and dramatic than a pristine vintage PP watch could tell. It's a conversation piece. Buy it for exactly what it is.
     
  20. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    I fail to see how that is different from a new panarai watch - which is basically a replica of a watch made 50 years ago, but that has purchased the right to use the name form the legitimate heir to the name.

    if you are not interested in the movements (which I am not either, by the way) and you are not trying to sell it, then using a vintage case with a new moevement makes a lot of sense to me.

    enjoy

    Some of the original Panerais were by Rolex, which is what the modern Radiomir are based on.

    [​IMG]
     

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