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Sneakers With Tailoring: Yes, No, Maybe?

Sneakers With Tailoring: Yes, No, Maybe?

  • No, never.

  • Yes, it can be done tastefully.

  • Not sure.


Results are only viewable after voting.

emptym

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Ah, DWW with his antiquated and fixed rules. Is my use of "pseudo-academic" equivalent to wearing chinos with oxfords? Language is a living thing used to express meaning in a community. The use of the term "pseudo-academic" is firmly extablished in language use.
He wasn't saying pseudo-academic isn't a legit word, just that sociology isn't a pseudo-academic field. It's an academic field, but as a social science, it might be called pseudo-scientific.
... Ah yes, he is a white supremacist, because he disagrees with me...
Have you read his political writings? Not on the forum, but in published journals? There are stronger grounds for calling him a white supremacist than just "he disagrees with me."
It's not a sad picture, the Allies have liberated Europe from the Nazis and finally things are looking up for the kid and his feet wont be cold and wet no more!!!!
it’s a very moving picture and indeed joyous yet sad at the same time.

Perhaps we can stop labeling one another as Nazis for just a little while and reflect on what the Nazis actually did.
Yey, it's sad and joyous at the same time. Joyous because of his joy, the liberation, the gift. But sad because his extreme joy is due in part because of his prior deprivation. I only learned the history of the photo when looking for it recently. I don't know when I first saw it. Perhaps a @bengalstripe post or avatar. But even if one doesn't know the history, the reason for sadness should be apparent.
im personally not very interested in straight line CM at this point because (1) it’s pretty easy to execute enough to blend in if you stick to an easily understood formula and ...
Yeah, it's easy to blend in, since most people who wear CM don't take a lot of interest in it. But there are levels of depth that one could explore for a long time. This has been apparent to me every time I've met someone like @iammatt, @dopey, @Parker, @lefty, or @gdl203 in person.
As I said very deliberately, "I know you know" - I wasn't in any way implying ignorance, so there's no need to defensive! It was an invitation to conversation and thought. So rather than just fighting with trolls and fools, can we not consider the question of nostalgia and its more unsavoury connections as much as those positive lineages and impressions? I am surely not the only person who cringes every time someone (once again) posts a picture of the Duke of Windsor as some sartorial role-model, or Gianni Agnelli... we had a little of this in the Stylish or Cool thread before it was shouted down by the usual suspects who while being entirely motivation by very particular politics try to claim that politics doesn't below in discussions of clothing.
Are you saying we should dismiss entirely someone's style because of their politics? I'm not sure I agree with that. But I do agree that DWW would be better off if he spent less time replying to trolls and fools. I also like how he posts other icons with similar style.

Btw, you mentioned that cowboys "were originally mostly black." I know there were large numbers, but do you have a source for the "most"? And when I hear "originally," I think Spanish, Native American, or Latinx. Here's a pic from one of my favorite books as a kid, Dean's Gold Star Book of Cowboys, written and illustrated by English twin sisters, Janet and Anne Grahame Johnstone. Here's a page from their book:
IMG_0366.jpeg

Their drawings have great style.
 

acapaca

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I can't speak for how an imaginary group of people would read an outfit. How can I possibly do that without falling into false-consensus effect?
Well, you certainly don't hesitate to speak for their thoughts when you read their outfits. Doesn't seem that the fundamental misattribution error is something you have ever feared, or perhaps even considered.
 

FlyingMonkey

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I'm finding it hard to sift through irony versus real opinion here.

I think you found it so hard that you missed the point entirely, but you read what you wanted to read into my post without actually caring what it actually says, and how it is said. I mean it's not that hard, I even tell you the tone to read the thing in, in the first line of the last para...

And I wonder if you actually know who Manton (AKA Michael Anton) is, have followed his political career, or read his writings because if you had, you would realise that I was merely being factual and very specific in terms of what he advocates. This is the problem with arguing on the basis of ignorance, and I don't recommend it.
 

FlyingMonkey

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Are you saying we should dismiss entirely someone's style because of their politics? I'm not sure I agree with that. But I do agree that DWW would be better off if he spent less time replying to trolls and fools. I also like how he posts other icons with similar style.

No, I'm not saying that. I am asking (as a provocation) why, if we are to consider the social contexts, messages and meanings of style (as DWW, myself and I think you too would agree that we should), why do we tend to skate over the ways in which others with very unsavoury beliefs try to associate the kinds of nostalgic / timeless / classic aesthetics - that DWW correctly argues that CM used to promote - with politically regressive politics? And I was very careful to say that this wasn't to argue that all CM is politically regressive, but I was trying to at least grapple with some of the dangers of nostalgia / timelessness / etc. as a basis for aesthetic judgement.
 

radicaldog

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I am asking (as a provocation) why, if we are to consider the social contexts, messages and meanings of style (as DWW, myself and I think you too would agree that we should), why do we tend to skate over the ways in which others with very unsavoury beliefs try to associate the kinds of nostalgic / timeless / classic aesthetics - that DWW correctly argues that CM used to promote - with politically regressive politics?

I obviously loathe Manton's politics, but I do think he is a very competent connoisseur of the CM aesthetic, even though he probably espouses it for all the wrong reasons. If one is interested in that aesthetic--even if only to subvert it--one can learn a lot from Manton's writing. One doesn't have to take on his ideological baggage.

I suppose I am a bit unusual in my circles on this point, but by and large I do not believe in ignoring people's useful contributions because of their bad politics. (For example, I still teach the work of philosophers who turned out to be sexual harassers. Some people say I shouldn't, but I just think those papers are still the best on their subject, so.)
 

dieworkwear

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No, I'm not saying that. I am asking (as a provocation) why, if we are to consider the social contexts, messages and meanings of style (as DWW, myself and I think you too would agree that we should), why do we tend to skate over the ways in which others with very unsavoury beliefs try to associate the kinds of nostalgic / timeless / classic aesthetics - that DWW correctly argues that CM used to promote - with politically regressive politics? And I was very careful to say that this wasn't to argue that all CM is politically regressive, but I was trying to at least grapple with some of the dangers of nostalgia / timelessness / etc. as a basis for aesthetic judgement.

I think CM's association with conservative politics comes through three different areas, as it's a diverse field. This also touches on how nostalgia plays into aesthetics, and how nostalgia is used.

1. Far-right trad groups. The first group is what I would characterize as far-right trads. Not trad meaning American trad style, but just general notions of tradition. You often see these types of people post memes like "Which way, Western man?" They also post photos of a man in a suit versus Justin Beiber, or a Renaissance painting versus a modern sculpture. The idea is that modernity is bad and the past was good. Mixed into this is the idea that non-white immigrants are ruining Western countries and that we should protect white women.

My impression is that these people are not particularly interested in the aesthetics of dress, but what they believe the aesthetic represents. In other words, they are not going to spend a lot of time on here arguing about whether an extended front dart has any place in classic American tailoring. They are more interested in what they think a suit broadly represents.

I say this because, whenever I see how these people dress, I'm surprised by how bad they look. They are often wearing Brooks Brothers Red Fleece or very modern versions of classic dress. So short jacket, tight suit, bright tan shoes, etc. I don't think they're seriously interested in nostalgia of dress. Otherwise, they would not dress this way.

I think some of those ideas occasionally come up on this board, but it's rare. Most of those guys are primarily in CE and not CM. I think most guys who post in CM are primarily interested in aesthetics.

2. The normie. I also think that CM occupies a much more "normie" role in dress. By virtue of its history, it's the default for how many would choose to dress if they start dressing with intention (this is the fallacy that dressing well is necessarily dressing up). As such, I think the CM community is much more diverse in terms of geography, age, social background, etc. By contrast, I think SWD outfits are more rooted in urban communities.

I think you see this a lot with online content creation. The guys who create online SWD content (e.g., blogs and YouTube channels) are often based in London, NYC, Tokyo, and the like. Whereas CM content creators span everywhere from London (Permanent Style) to the American midwest (e.g., Art of Manliness, Gentlemen's Gazette, etc). I also get the impression that some of the audience is Balkanized. I think that there's a section of online content consumers who are based outside of major cities, and they primarily consume AoM and Gentlemen's Gazette type of content, not Permanent Style.

So then CM is associated with conservative politics not because of anything due to the aesthetic, but as an effect of geographic and social distribution. It's just a bigger tent and probably better represents the broader, more diverse set of opinions within a polity. SWD communities are almost entirely liberal because it's mostly based in cosmopolitan cities, where people tend to be liberal.

When you visit boards such as Denim Bro -- another aesthetic that will find more of a home in the American midwest -- you will see the same divergence. Instead of the entirely liberal politics of SWD, there are more conservatives in the denim and workwear community. I think that's mostly a consequence of geography, not aesthetics. CM and workwear are relatively more "normie" aesthetics and thus will fit into a broader range of geographies, so it will capture a more diverse set of people.

3. Respectability. CM also represents notions of respectability or normative behavior, which in modern politics, mostly reads as conservative. You again see this language come up all the time on this board (although, I will say again, many of these traditionalists don't actually dress traditional). So, "don't wear sneakers because you will look like a child." Or "wear a suit and dress your age."

Respectability is often just playing into the dominant culture's norms -- "speak right," "dress right," "act right," which is to say "speak proper English," "dress like an Anglo gentleman," or "perform Victorian behavior."

Lots of minority communities with otherwise liberal beliefs also share this view. I think this view is just coded as conservative because of modern politics (much of which was polarized after the killing of Trayvon Martin, and respectability politics became even more of a dirty term).

CM is also associated with positions of power, money (corporate jobs), and rules (governance and law). So it's going to attract people who are also attracted to the Establishment, which reads as conservative. I think much of how we read politics and culture was shaped by 1960s and 70s culture wars, including civil rights struggles, hippie movements, preppy backlash, and the like.

4. Aesthetes. Finally, I think there are people who are just aesthetes. Some people like CM simply because of the look -- it's purely aesthetics. They may not have any relationship to the people above: they don't care about vintage values (the far right trad), they recognize that they stick out in their version of CM (so they're not the normie), and they don't necessarily care about respectability. They simply want to look good.

So for the first group (far right trads), conservative politics comes through CM directly through the aesthetic's association with the past. For the second group (normies), conservative politics comes through as an indirect result of CM's position as the aesthetic default. For the third group (respectability), it's partly a direct association of CM aesthetics and politics, but also how we today read notions of respectability in dress (or respectability politics). For the fourth group (aesthetes), politics and aesthetics can be two totally unrelated categories (e.g., see pins such as "vintage style, not vintage values" in certain womenswear communities).

I think nostalgia can play a role for all four groups, but it's strongest for groups 1 and 4. The normie probably only has a passing interest in nostalgia -- they may think that nostalgia makes you look overly vintage. I would count myself in group four. I value nostalgia as an aesthetic and use it to guide my own form of dress, but that nostalgia has little to do with anything outside of aesthetics.

I would never wear something that's offensive, including political things such as a swastika symbol. But I'm fine with sharing an aesthetic with people I disagree with, particularly if it's a relatively "normie" aesthetic that reads as "normal" anyway. Very few people are "so online" that they're even aware of the first group (the far-right trads).
 
Last edited:

ValidusLA

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I think CM's association with conservative politics comes through three different areas, as it's a diverse field. This also touches on how nostalgia plays into aesthetics, and how nostalgia is used.

1. Far-right trad groups. The first group is what I would characterize as far-right trads. Not trad meaning American trad style, but just general notions of tradition. You often see these types of people post memes like "Which way, Western man?" They also post photos of a man in a suit versus Justin Beiber, or a Renaissance painting versus a modern sculpture. The idea is that modernity is bad and the past was good. Mixed into this is the idea that non-white immigrants are ruining Western countries and that we should protect white women.

My impression is that these people are not particularly interested in the aesthetics of dress, but what they believe the aesthetic represents. In other words, they are not going to spend a lot of time on here arguing about whether an extended front dart has any place in classic American tailoring. They are more interested in what they think a suit broadly represents.

I say this because, whenever I see how these people dress, I'm surprised by how bad they look. They are often wearing Brooks Brothers Red Fleece or very modern versions of classic dress. So short jacket, tight suit, bright tan shoes, etc. I don't think they're seriously interested in nostalgia of dress. Otherwise, they would not dress this way.

I think some of those ideas occasionally come up on this board, but it's rare. Most of those guys are primarily in CE and not CM. I think most guys who post in CM are primarily interested in aesthetics.

2. The normie. I also think that CM occupies a much more "normie" role in dress. By virtue of its history, it's the default for how many would choose to dress if they start dressing with intention (this is the fallacy that dressing well is necessarily dressing up). As such, I think the CM community is much more diverse in terms of geography, age, social background, etc. By contrast, I think SWD outfits are more rooted in urban communities.

I think you see this a lot with online content creation. The guys who create online SWD content (e.g., blogs and YouTube channels) are often based in London, NYC, Tokyo, and the like. Whereas CM content creators span everywhere from London (Permanent Style) to the American midwest (e.g., Art of Manliness, Gentlemen's Gazette, etc). I also get the impression that some of the audience is Balkanized. I think that there's a section of online content consumers who are based outside of major cities, and they primarily consume AoM and Gentlemen's Gazette type of content, not Permanent Style.

So then CM is associated with conservative politics not because of anything due to the aesthetic, but as an effect of geographic and social distribution. It's just a bigger tent and probably better represents the broader, more diverse set of opinions within a polity. SWD communities are almost entirely liberal because it's mostly based in cosmopolitan cities, where people tend to be liberal.

When you visit boards such as Denim Bro -- another aesthetic that will find more of a home in the American midwest -- you will see the same divergence. Instead of the entirely liberal politics of SWD, there are more conservatives in the denim and workwear community. I think that's mostly a consequence of geography, not aesthetics. CM and workwear are relatively more "normie" aesthetics and thus will fit into a broader range of geographies, so it will capture a more diverse set of people.

3. Respectability. CM also represents notions of respectability or normative behavior, which in modern politics, mostly reads as conservative. You again see this language come up all the time on this board (although, I will say again, many of these traditionalists don't actually dress traditional). So, "don't wear sneakers because you will look like a child." Or "wear a suit and dress your age."

Respectability is often just playing into the dominant culture's norms -- "speak right," "dress right," "act right," which is to say "speak proper English," "dress like an Anglo gentleman," or "perform Victorian behavior."

Lots of minority communities with otherwise liberal beliefs also share this view. I think this view is just coded as conservative because of modern politics (much of which was polarized after the killing of Trayvon Martin, and respectability politics became even more of a dirty term).

CM is also associated with positions of power, money (corporate jobs), and rules (governance and law). So it's going to attract people who are also attracted to the Establishment, which reads as conservative. I think much of how we read politics and culture was shaped by 1960s and 70s culture wars, including civil rights struggles, hippie movements, preppy backlash, and the like.

4. Aesthetes. Finally, I think there are people who are just aesthetes. Some people like CM simply because of the look -- it's purely aesthetics. They may not have any relationship to the people above: they don't care about vintage values (the far right trad), they recognize that they stick out in their version of CM (so they're not the normie), and they don't necessarily care about respectability. They simply want to look good.

So for the first group (far right trads), conservative politics comes through CM directly through the aesthetic's association with the past. For the second group (normies), conservative politics comes through as an indirect result of CM's position as the aesthetic default. For the third group (respectability), it's partly a direct association of CM aesthetics and politics, but also how we today read notions of respectability in dress (or respectability politics). For the fourth group (aesthetes), politics and aesthetics can be two totally unrelated categories (e.g., see pins such as "vintage style, not vintage values" in certain womenswear communities).

I think nostalgia can play a role for all four groups, but it's strongest for groups 1 and 4. The normie probably only has a passing interest in nostalgia -- they may think that nostalgia makes you look overly vintage. I would count myself in group four. I value nostalgia as an aesthetic and use it to guide my own form of dress, but that nostalgia has little to do with anything outside of aesthetics.

I would never wear something that's offensive, including political things such as a swastika symbol. But I'm fine with sharing an aesthetic with people I disagree with, particularly if it's a relatively "normie" aesthetic that reads as "normal" anyway. Very few people are "so online" that they're even aware of the first group (the far-right trads).

I am now envisioning a world where you analyze posters from CM and categorize them into one of the four until the entire thread turns into a flame war and gets squirreled.
 

gnatty8

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Have you read his political writings? Not on the forum, but in published journals? There are stronger grounds for calling him a white supremacist than just "he disagrees with me."

OK seriously, as a moderator I think one of your roles is to keep order and civility in these threads and caution against members slandering each other. I don't think one of your roles is participating in that slander, particularly when the target of said slander isn't here to defend themselves from it. Please, is every goddamned thread on this forum as politicized and polarized as the ShitPool?
 

Waldo Jeffers

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When I was in junior high, you could be either a prep or a guido

it was sort of racist, but there were lots of preppy Italians and non-Italian guidos

most of the kids who arrived at the school didn’t know they were one or the other until they got there. So I guess it was sort of like prison in that way

it is interesting to me that there are people who go through their entire lives like this— seeking to be part of some team and seeking to label others as not on their team. Maybe even waking up every day and selecting clothes that reinforce your perception that you are clearly on a certain team that you imagine everyone else can see
 

Leiker

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OK seriously, as a moderator I think one of your roles is to keep order and civility in these threads and caution against members slandering each other. I don't think one of your roles is participating in that slander, particularly when the target of said slander isn't here to defend themselves from it. Please, is every goddamned thread on this forum as politicized and polarized as the ShitPool?
Truth is a defense against charges of libel (libel: in print, slander: oral), and "There are stronger grounds for calling him a white supremacist than just 'he disagrees with me.' " is certainly true.
 

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