Sneakers With Tailoring: Yes, No, Maybe?

[Phileas Fogg]

It’s not just men:

 

[yorkshire pud]

This thread... well, the only think I can say about it that's positive is that it's turned into a good idiot identification tool.

Yet you keep hitting that notification bell to see where the action is at don't you?

 

[JFWR]

You have an incredibly limited style vocabulary.

Basically, if a woman is going to dress very masculine, the effect will either have to emphasize:

1. Her cuteness (more apparent in more femine women).
2. Her similarity to adolescent males and appeal to that look.

Mind you, it can be a combo.

If not, it comes off just butch or frump.

 

[JohnMRobie]

*clicks on another debate thread*

 

[dieworkwear]

Basically, if a woman is going to dress very masculine, the effect will either have to emphasize:

1. Her cuteness (more apparent in more femine women).
2. Her similarity to adolescent males and appeal to that look.

Mind you, it can be a combo.

If not, it comes off just butch or frump.

If we take this sentence as true:

"Women look better when they emphasize their cuteness or their similarity to adolescent males."

Then what's the counterpart for men? I assume:

"Men look better when they emphasize their ruggedness or their mature masculine characteristics."

If this is so, then how do things such as green oxfords fit into this? I'm not asking to be snarky, but genuinely curious. How does dressing like a 19th century Scotsman with a watch chain and wearing green oxfords emphasize one's ruggedness and mature characteristics? If womenswear outcomes are so limited, then presumably menswear outcomes are also limited (perhaps more so since menswear is often more limited). In this regard, this type of outfit just comes off as adolescent cosplay, dandy, or some other non-mature, non-rugged expression.

Wouldn't the only acceptable dress for men be basically Conservative Business Dress (as defined by Manton) or rugged workwear?

 

[Mercurio]

This woman bears most of the marks of a prepubescent male.

Smooth face, youthful appearance, little sexual dimorphism (no breasts, no hips), and the clothing is meant to masculinize her femininity. Given that boys, before pubescence, look more like girls this makes he look like about a 13 year old boy.

I should have said: the feminine -often- approximates the prepubescent boy. There can of course, be profoundly feminine women who look nothing like this, but that is not this. She ain't no big tiddy sex bomb.

China has been using very young artist and singers, among others, that the advertising agencies call “little fresh meat”, to promote their luxury products, young male dressed in a very androgynous way, that attracts their public, as many high-end brands use them to increase their sales.

How Should Luxury Brands Represent Masculinity in China?

Luxury brands have been widely using “Little Fresh Meat” to rejuvenate their brand images as well as attract their legions of fans.

jingdaily.com

Is Chinese Masculinity in Crisis or an Opportunity for Brands?

There is more to the emerging Chinese masculinity landscape than effeminate, androgynous good-looking males.

jingdaily.com

How China's 'Little Fresh Meat' Give Luxury Brands a Big Boost

'Little Fresh Meat,' the handsome young men in ad campaigns for women's products, are a growing phenomenon in China as brands aim to leverage their sex appeal.

jingdaily.com

 

[JFWR]

China has been using very young artist and singers, among others, that the advertising agencies call “little fresh meat”, to promote their luxury products, young male dressed in a very androgynous way, that attracts their public, as many high-end brands use them to increase their sales.

How Should Luxury Brands Represent Masculinity in China?

Luxury brands have been widely using “Little Fresh Meat” to rejuvenate their brand images as well as attract their legions of fans.

jingdaily.com

Is Chinese Masculinity in Crisis or an Opportunity for Brands?

There is more to the emerging Chinese masculinity landscape than effeminate, androgynous good-looking males.

jingdaily.com

How China's 'Little Fresh Meat' Give Luxury Brands a Big Boost

'Little Fresh Meat,' the handsome young men in ad campaigns for women's products, are a growing phenomenon in China as brands aim to leverage their sex appeal.

jingdaily.com

Yeah, part of the pederasty chique. Also, it emphasizes what I've been saying: these looks from women approximate adolescent boys, as these are young men who have kept their adolescent looks by not developing much in the way of secondary sexual characteristics.

 

[yorkshire pud]

China has been using very young artist and singers, among others, that the advertising agencies call “little fresh meat”, to promote their luxury products, young male dressed in a very androgynous way, that attracts their public, as many high-end brands use them to increase their sales.

How Should Luxury Brands Represent Masculinity in China?

Luxury brands have been widely using “Little Fresh Meat” to rejuvenate their brand images as well as attract their legions of fans.

jingdaily.com

Is Chinese Masculinity in Crisis or an Opportunity for Brands?

There is more to the emerging Chinese masculinity landscape than effeminate, androgynous good-looking males.

jingdaily.com

How China's 'Little Fresh Meat' Give Luxury Brands a Big Boost

'Little Fresh Meat,' the handsome young men in ad campaigns for women's products, are a growing phenomenon in China as brands aim to leverage their sex appeal.

jingdaily.com

Call me cynical if you like, but androgony and the whole gender blender thing might just be a deliberate ploy to cut costs by the big fashion retailers

If they can eventually get everyone to look the same (like in 1984), they don't have to make male vs female anymore (just a range of sizes from cute to gorilla)

Plus they won't have to make gender specific laundry detergents (if that is actually a thing)

??

 

[物の哀れ]

My tailor has a seperate women's line.

 

[JFWR]

If we take this sentence as true:

"Women look better when they emphasize their cuteness or their similarity to adolescent males."

Then what's the counterpart for men? I assume:

"Men look better when they emphasize their ruggedness or their mature masculine characteristics."

If this is so, then how do things such as green oxfords fit into this? I'm not asking to be snarky, but genuinely curious. How does dressing like a 19th century Scotsman with a watch chain and wearing green oxfords emphasize one's ruggedness and mature characteristics? If womenswear outcomes are so limited, then presumably menswear outcomes are also limited (perhaps more so since menswear is often more limited). In this regard, this type of outfit just comes off as adolescent cosplay, dandy, or some other non-mature, non-rugged expression.

Wouldn't the only acceptable dress for men be basically Conservative Business Dress (as defined by Manton) or rugged workwear?

I like the colour green, I like half brogues, I like oxfords, and I like shell cordovan. This made my purchase of a pair of green shell cordovan half brogued oxfords quite an easy decision for me. I think we've gone over this before, though I am amused that we've come back to my green shoes again.

Also, did I ever actually post a picture of me wearing my pocket watch? Or were you guessing? If the latter: remarkable guess!

But you've also misunderstood my initial point.

I am saying: If women want to dress like men, then they better emphasize their cuteness, or else have a look that kind of looks like an adolescent boy.

You forgot the antecedent to that conditional. I didn't include elegant looks, sexy looks, etc. Now if you were to ask me what kind of women I like in general, I do actually go for cute girls, but not cute girls dressed in mannish clothing, but like the women I posted. I like the type of girl I can call doll face and mean it. That's my personal preference.

Now I could probably formulate a conditional for men wanting to look masculine, at least in the context of clothing on the more formal scale of things, but I am not sure if I have thought that one through enough to be able to give you one I'd be willing to philosophically support. I'll give that some thought and get back to you.

As for my personal fashion choices: Dress shoes are a pretty traditional masculine look, and despite the fact that green is an untraditional colour, I think I can match those shoes in various combinations, especially in earth toned outfits or in other contexts, that suit it. I often like wearing those green oxfords with brown tones (especially corduroy), or if I am going to wear them with say grey trousers, with perhaps a green jacket. I try to avoid blues when I wear green, as I think those colours tend to clash, unless "there is a colour in between", and even then I generally think there can be better combinations.

I don't see these as effete. Am I He-Man in them? No. Nor am I trying to be He-Man. But I am trying to look refined, but unique, and I think those do it for me.

As for why I try to "look like a 19th century Scotsman": 1. I an academic, so similar styles are kind of traditional in my field. Corduroy, tweed, etc 2. I'm actually of Irish and English ancestry predominately, so these aren't too far from styles that would be common from where my family was from. 3. I like wearing pocket watches 'cause they're pretty rare nowadays, and I have some nice antique ones. 4. I feel cool wearing it and I stand out in a way that is pleasing to me. 5. It's my way of presenting a different look than those around me, specifically in contrast to the major looks where I find myself now which are "dirt farmer","Soundcloud rapper", and "frat boy".

 

[dieworkwear]

My tailor has a seperate women's line.

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I love the sophisticated use of colors in womenwear. And I often use those ideas when I get dressed or commission something.

I recently bought a taupe cotton suit from I Sarti and got the idea because of how prevalent the color is used in womenswear.

Stoffa is full of "womenswear colors." Soft browns, warmish greys, taupe, walnut, sand, terracotta, lemon yellow, lilac, etc.

As I said earlier, I don't even think of this stuff in terms of gender at this point. I do in the sense that I'm aware of these concepts, but I don't in terms of where I draw inspiration.

 

[dieworkwear]

I like the colour green, I like half brogues, I like oxfords, and I like shell cordovan. This made my purchase of a pair of green shell cordovan half brogued oxfords quite an easy decision for me. I think we've gone over this before, though I am amused that we've come back to my green shoes again.

Also, did I ever actually post a picture of me wearing my pocket watch? Or were you guessing? If the latter: remarkable guess!

But you've also misunderstood my initial point.

I am saying: If women want to dress like men, then they better emphasize their cuteness, or else have a look that kind of looks like an adolescent boy.

You forgot the antecedent to that conditional. I didn't include elegant looks, sexy looks, etc. Now if you were to ask me what kind of women I like in general, I do actually go for cute girls, but not cute girls dressed in mannish clothing, but like the women I posted. I like the type of girl I can call doll face and mean it. That's my personal preference.

Now I could probably formulate a conditional for men wanting to look masculine, at least in the context of clothing on the more formal scale of things, but I am not sure if I have thought that one through enough to be able to give you one I'd be willing to philosophically support. I'll give that some thought and get back to you.

As for my personal fashion choices: Dress shoes are a pretty traditional masculine look, and despite the fact that green is an untraditional colour, I think I can match those shoes in various combinations, especially in earth toned outfits or in other contexts, that suit it. I often like wearing those green oxfords with brown tones (especially corduroy), or if I am going to wear them with say grey trousers, with perhaps a green jacket. I try to avoid blues when I wear green, as I think those colours tend to clash, unless "there is a colour in between", and even then I generally think there can be better combinations.

I don't see these as effete. Am I He-Man in them? No. Nor am I trying to be He-Man. But I am trying to look refined, but unique, and I think those do it for me.

As for why I try to "look like a 19th century Scotsman": 1. I an academic, so similar styles are kind of traditional in my field. Corduroy, tweed, etc 2. I'm actually of Irish and English ancestry predominately, so these aren't too far from styles that would be common from where my family was from. 3. I like wearing pocket watches 'cause they're pretty rare nowadays, and I have some nice antique ones. 4. I feel cool wearing it and I stand out in a way that is pleasing to me. 5. It's my way of presenting a different look than those around me, specifically in contrast to the major looks where I find myself now which are "dirt farmer","Soundcloud rapper", and "frat boy".

I just think those choices mark you as a dandy, and dandy is not traditionally coded as a masculine quality.

If we were to reduce womenswear to such narrow terms, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same for menswear.

I think "refined" as being simple. Pocket watches, floppy tammies, and green shell cordovan oxfords are not refined but dandyish.

 

[JFWR]

I just think those choices mark you as a dandy, and dandy is not traditionally coded as a masculine quality.

If we were to reduce womenswear to such narrow terms, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same for menswear.

I think "refined" as being simple. Pocket watches, floppy tammies, and green shell cordovan oxfords are not refined but dandyish.

Okay. Then maybe I'm not that masculine by your account. I'm okay being a dandy. As an academic, I can pull off certain eccentricities without harming my social standing or life prospects.

 

[dieworkwear]

Okay. Then maybe I'm not that masculine by your account. I'm okay being a dandy. As an academic, I can pull off certain eccentricities without harming my social standing or life prospects.

I didn't say that to suggest that menswear should be limited to conservative business dress or rugged workwear, but to say that, if we recognize the nuanced language in menswear, the same is true of womenswear. Just because you've reduced womenswear in such narrow terms doesn't mean that fully captures the range of expressions in that field. (Or rather, not necessarily womenswear, but menswear on women). I think you're just not as familiar with that field.

In previous posts, you've alluded to the idea that this is what you prefer on women -- cute dresses or cute expressions of menswear on women. Or women who accentuate their similarities to little boys (I don't know how to phrase this nicely; I didn't phrase it this way to be mean). But your sexual attraction towards a certain kind of woman has little relevance to how womenswear can legitimately express itself. Women don't necessarily dress to please men any more than men on this board dress to please women (if they did, I assure you they should not wear 99% of what's posted on this board).

Menswear has a wide range of expressions, which hopefully, people on this board can recognize because they're acquainted with the field. I'm again continually dismayed at how CM has morphed into a dandy shoe forum. But even within this language, there are many expressions. Womenswear has been historically much more expressive and nuanced; I don't see why in this specific instance, we should think that womenswear has more limited outcomes than menswear. If menswear on women is either cute or butch, what's to say of the multitude of non-masculine looks posted on this forum (including the dandies).

 

[JFWR]

I just think those choices mark you as a dandy, and dandy is not traditionally coded as a masculine quality.

If we were to reduce womenswear to such narrow terms, I don't see why we shouldn't do the same for menswear.

I think "refined" as being simple. Pocket watches, floppy tammies, and green shell cordovan oxfords are not refined but dandyish.

I am amused you remember my posts here better than I. I don't recall posting my tam o'shanter here.

It's warm as hell and it's fun to wear.