Sneakers With Tailoring: Yes, No, Maybe?

[Phileas Fogg]

A screen shot of this thread

perhaps the title should be changed to: can we disagree with one another without insults?
The poll answers remain valid.

 

[yorkshire pud]

I would guess they do it well enough to be better than many, perhaps even most. This makes them think they're world-class, perhaps the best. But that's hubris.

I think one of the blogs JFWR linked identified the main reason: "If you can find some navy shoes, get your hands on them. They’re uncommon, which raises their cool factor, and they’re incredibly stylish if you can work them right." (edit, and JFWR's post, written as I was writing, attests to this: "I also dress to stand out hopefully in a good way."

When you realize derbies go better with shorts than oxfords:
View attachment 1676360
Even if the derbies are leather and the oxfords cotton.
Seriously though, this is my favorite old pic of a kid w/ shoes, but also such a sad pic.

It's not a sad picture, the Allies have liberated Europe from the Nazis and finally things are looking up for the kid and his feet wont be cold and wet no more!!!!

 

[Phileas Fogg]

I would guess they do it well enough to be better than many, perhaps even most. This makes them think they're world-class, perhaps the best. But that's hubris.

I think one of the blogs JFWR linked identified the main reason: "If you can find some navy shoes, get your hands on them. They’re uncommon, which raises their cool factor, and they’re incredibly stylish if you can work them right." (edit, and JFWR's post, written as I was writing, attests to this: "I also dress to stand out hopefully in a good way."

When you realize derbies go better with shorts than oxfords:
View attachment 1676360
Even if the derbies are leather and the oxfords cotton.
Seriously though, this is my favorite old pic of a kid w/ shoes, but also such a sad pic.

it’s a very moving picture and indeed joyous yet sad at the same time.

Perhaps we can stop labeling one another as Nazis for just a little while and reflect on what the Nazis actually did.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Maybe I'm a snob but I'm surprised to see that people would push back with regard to the fact that what we wear is often sending messages, good or bad. It can do so without necessarily speaking about a romanticized time or politics or even classism. I'd imagine that we've all been in environments where you see someone new to wearing tailored clothing - On the obvious side it's bright blue suits with tan oxfords, shirt collars two sizes too big, trousers that fit like leggings, sneakers worn poorly with tailoring, poorly tied ties, clip on ties, black suits to interviews, dress shoes with corrected grain plastic coated leathers and chunky foamish soles.

I'm helping a family member plan their wedding and they specifically don't want to wear formalwear (that isn't their personality or the venue) but they want to look nice and the guy had a visceral reaction to wearing a blue suit because his mind went to bright blue suits and tan shoes. He wears tailoring maybe once a year but the message to him was cheap, rented crap suits come in a bright blue that don't fit. His reaction to the opposite of that was to think "black suits" - I helped steer him toward Spier Mackay, showed him what navy looks like (his fiance wanted some shade of blue) and introduced him and his groomsmen to my alterations tailor.

Clothing and how we wear it sends a message. When done poorly that message is something like "I'm new at this" or "I don't like dressing up." A lot of times it's people who look for the more comfortable version or a more modern version of whatever is classic. Perhaps they're rebelling, perhaps they're trying to be edgy. I was at a wedding not long ago and the most successful person in the room showed up wearing a bright blue suit (I believe it was Isaia MTM) and Off-White x Nike Jordan Chicago 1's with his top button undone and a loosened tie. A number of people said "Did you see what X is wearing?" throughout the night because the outfit sent a message. White and red nikes with a blue suit. Some people were in awe of the price of a pair of sneakers when they found out, some people were appalled there were sneakers with a suit, some people thought it was a trendy way to wear a suit and fit his personality "that's just X." Can sneakers be worn tastefully with tailoring? I think if it's casual enough or the right environment but the type of sneaker needs to match up - Basketball shoes with tailoring at a more formal event probably isn't the best option. A linen suit while you're vacationing and Common Projects? Probably more so.

There is an MTM outfit in my area - I avoided it for a long time because of their marketing and branding. Everyone wearing sneakers with tailoring, jackets too short and tight, contrast button holes, it all came off very iGenty and wasn't what I wanted to wear. It sends a message. Their competition isn't indochino or suitsupply either - They aren't cheap. I just don't particularly like how they pair their product. Big monograms on their shirt sleeves in a contrast stitching. It sends a message to me of saying "Hey look at me, isn't it cool this is custom." It must be good for business because they're constantly busy - They can absolutely make things that look more classic and you can pair it however you want but that branding kept me out of the door for years.

I grew up in ranch country when rhinestone cowboys were a thing. It moved on to girls wearing Miss Me jeans. Those outfits sent a message. The color denim you picked sent a message when people went to wally world or the supply store to get your new pair of jeans for the new school year. Can your family afford the real Wranglers? Were you the lucky kid who got to Kohls and get Levi's instead? Were you the rich kid who could go to Abercrombie? What color did you pick? Bright blue and starched? Bleached? Are you a t shirt or a western shirt guy? What about your boots? Did you opt for the round toe, square or snipped? The western snap shirt and blue, starched jeans were for church or a date with your boots that were less beaten up.

From "power ties" to "interview suits" or "the midtown uniform" or a "Canadian tuxedo" what we wear and how we wear it often sends a message and speaks a language - Hopefully the guys who are spending their time talking about this stuff and thinking about it have put some thought into what the message is that they want to send and how their outfit does it. I thought that was pretty universally accepted but I suppose maybe not.

 

[VegasRebel]

A number of people said "Did you see what X is wearing?" throughout the night because the outfit sent a message. White and red nikes with a blue suit. Some people were in awe of the price of a pair of sneakers when they found out, some people were appalled there were sneakers with a suit, some people thought it was a trendy way to wear a suit and fit his personality "that's just X."

I think this is key, though. Clothes don't just send -a- message, they involve -many- messages. Maybe the wearer is wearing something because it conveys or means something to them (like the tie I wear that my friend's late father gave me.) Anyone who sees the outfit and considers it will take something else from it. Maybe my shoes seem iGenty to DWW, and stylish to someone else, and casual to a third person.

I have a lot more control over what I intend and think about my outfit than I do what someone else thinks about it, so I tend to focus on that outside of very particular circumstances. If I'm interviewing somewhere conservative, I might lean into CM in just that instance. But on the daily, I don't give other people's interpretation a lot of consideration.

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

I thought you found it offensive to say that some people dress in a more sophisticated manner than others? Seems like I was being excoriated for this idea. But now people who wear expensive SWD brands are more sophisticated dressers than people who wear affordable SWD brands?

I'm not sure what was your point regarding high-end denim brands. I thought you mean that, if you took the same Levi's outfit and made it purple, including from the same brand, that was the only way you can tell whether your impression of the outfit changes based on color and not brand.

I was not sure if you were implying that high-priced brands are somehow more legitimate than low-priced brands. I'm not sure what price or quality has to do with my point.



I have no idea what most people would say in that room. I can only give you my impression. I would notice the guy in a purple jacket or navy shoes, and I have the judgment I've so far expressed. To my eye, it would be like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

I think I understand why CM is changing the way it has. I think it's because of online shoe culture, and how a cohort of people left the forum. Their presence helped anchor the culture here. There are still a large number of people here that are interested in outfits -- I would say well over 50% -- but also a section of the forum that's mostly interested in shoes. There is a section of this forum that's basically the dress shoe equivalent of sneakerheads. When is the latest drop? What's the new make? What shoes are you buying next? Check out this photo of my new shoes.

im personally not very interested in straight line CM at this point because (1) it’s pretty easy to execute enough to blend in if you stick to an easily understood formula and (2) I no longer have to wear CM enough to have a need to inject any variety into that formula— the absolute basics are more than enough if you only wear CM a couple of times per month

by contrast, casual and CM-adjacent seems totally wide open to me, with far less of a ready made formula and far greater need to have variety as this category essentially covers daily life

CM to me is essentially like a tuxedo at this point

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I'm aware of Manton's politics
[cut]
I recently wrote about Black cowboys; I'm aware of the history.

As I said very deliberately, "I know you know" - I wasn't in any way implying ignorance, so there's no need to be defensive! It was an invitation to conversation and thought. So rather than just fighting with trolls and fools, can we not consider the question of nostalgia and its more unsavoury connections as much as those positive lineages and impressions? I am surely not the only person who cringes every time someone (once again) posts a picture of the Duke of Windsor as some sartorial role-model, or Gianni Agnelli... we had a little of this in the Stylish or Cool thread before it was shouted down by the usual suspects who while being entirely motivation by very particular politics try to claim that politics doesn't below in discussions of clothing.

 

[Stylewords]

If all you have is a hammer...

 

[dieworkwear]

I was trying to use language you would appreciate, or at least understand. Perhaps sophisticated wasn't the best choice of words. What I meant was...if you go to a place where people dress in a...cool? hip? trendy? 'in the know'?...sort of way, you won't find people wearing clown outfits or Ronald McDonald costumes or purple jackets and jeans. I had assumed that the 'denim' part of 'SWD' had a lot to do with hip and trendy and cool, but I admit that I don't know the scene well. And I had also never seen purple jeans and jackets before today, even in a picture, so my apologies if I'm way off about all this. At first I was going to say that you wouldn't see people wearing purple jackets and jeans at an Avett Brothers concert, but then I figured that the Avett Brothers are probably so 2015 and I would be laughed at by the cool people if I used that example.

But that said, I certainly believe that there are levels of sophistication in dress, just as in most other things of its kind, and yes, I'd be very surprised if purple jeans and jackets were near the top of it. But knowing it and saying it to someone directly are two far different things. There are a lot of things I know, or at least believe, that I would find in poor taste to say out loud.

On 'high-end'...my point was that they don't sell crap fast-food burgers at craft burger bars. If you go to a store like the Armoury, you will expect a certain curation in their goods on offer. They have the kind of reputation, do they not, that a customer can sort of trust blindly? As in, they may not feel the need to educate themselves about small details, or even broad strokes, if they can feel comfortable trusting their haberdasher to have the knowledge for them.

If that's true, as a general principle, then I'd like to know if you think it's every bit as easy to buy purple denim from the kind of maker or place that is seen as a consistent taste maker as it is to buy navy shoes. (It's not, which is a weakness in your argument.)


Well, that's exactly my point. How am I supposed to read that and believe that your views are in touch with the world around you? The real world that people live in. The world beyond a small circle of internet forum enthusiasts. You deny pretty vehemently that there's any cosplay element to maintaining a rigid and narrow range of what's acceptable to wear, but you also seem not to particularly care if that range becomes dated.

For someone who seems to work hard to have his finger on the pulse when it comes to these things, you just seem pretty uninterested in other points of view. It's not an especially endearing quality.

I think Levi's is a fine brand. The purple trucker jacket I posted is from Levi's Vintage Clothing, which is Levi's highest-end line. It's the same line that sells $300 jeans. I dress my dad in Levis and recently almost bought a Western shirt from their mainline (I still think it looks cool, but ended up not buying it). I also own clothes from Levi's Vintage Clothing and LVC is commonly talked about on the SWD side of the board.

In any case, I don't think expensive brands are the only ones who set "legitimate taste" when it comes to clothing.

I can't speak for how an imaginary group of people would read an outfit. How can I possibly do that without falling into false-consensus effect?

 

[Waldo Jeffers]

What kind of sneakers do black cowboys wear with jeans?

 

[yorkshire pud]

I don't subscribe to the dressing to send a message to random people in a social gathering.

Wear what makes you feel happy and comfortable.

Besides whic, isn't dressing conservatively sending the message that your directly opposed to socialist ideologies?? **

We had a brief moment in the UK of our politicians (left and right) wearing purple ties as if to say I'm neither fully Red nor fully Blue but somewhere in the centre!!!!

What CM is really saying to me is that you don't care too much for the modern world of fast fashion and long for the "Golden Age" of gentlemen, wealth and conservative values!!!!!

** Or that you like Jazz Music ??? ??

 

[dieworkwear]

I don't subscribe to the dressing to send a message to random people in a social gathering.

Wear what makes you feel happy and comfortable.

I don't think you actually believe this, but if dress is a purely visceral and private endeavor, why participate on a fashion board?

If the judgment of others matters nothing, why discuss such matters at all?

 

[VegasRebel]

I don't think you actually believe this, but if dress is a purely visceral and private endeavor, why participate on a fashion board?

If the judgment of others matters nothing, why discuss such matters at all?

I know you asked yorkshire but, for me, examples, mostly. This is about as close as I get to window shopping, and also a lot of people can speak to quality. I'd never heard of even major brands, like Spier & Mackay, before I came here. Other people's experiences can expose me to entirely new things, some of which I'll like.

 

[dieworkwear]

I think this past year has been the most obvious proof that dress is not purely a private endeavor. Unless you're one of those guys who wore tailoring at home and while on lockdown -- and even then, many of those people posted their outfits online for social approval -- then most of us primarily wore "comfort clothes" at home, not tailoring.

Richard Sennett wrote about this dynamic in his book The Fall of Public Man. How we dress at home is often very different from how we dress in public. He writes of the fashions in and around New York City, London, and Paris in the 18th century:

What makes 18th-century street wear fascinating is that even in less extreme cases, where the disparity between traditional clothes and new material conditions had not forced someone into an act of impersonation, where instead he wore clothes which reasonably accurately reflected who he was, the same sense of costume and convention was present. At home, one’s clothes suited one’s body and its needs; on the street, one stepped into clothes whose purpose was to make it possible for others to act as if they knew who you were. One became a figure in a contrived landscape; the purpose of clothes was not to be sure of whom you were dealing with, but to be able to behave as if you were sure. Do not inquire too deeply into the truth of other people’s appearances, Chesterfield counseled his son; life is more sociable if one takes people as they are not as they probably are. In this sense, then, clothes had a meaning independent of the wearer and the wearer’s body. Unlike as in the home, the body was a form to be draped.

IMO, most people dress with a mixture of both intentions -- dress is partly private and partly public. Rare to see people dress only with one dimension.

I can't say how an imaginary group of people would see blue shoes with a blue suit without falling into the false-consensus effect (the fallacy that other people necessarily share your views). I can only give my view on how I would see such an outfit.

 

[yorkshire pud]

I don't think you actually believe this, but if dress is a purely visceral and private endeavor, why participate on a fashion board?

If the judgment of others matters nothing, why discuss such matters at all?

Well, I'm not really here for fashion tips particularly. I have a passing interest in mens style/watches/cars/pop music/sport/TV/movies/Art/food and books

I find many of guys here quite interesting and I sometimes learn something new or old, This forum is good because you get to see things from other cultures that I might decide to add to my list of interests or individual style.

For the most part I'm dressed in uniform 12 hrs a day, but I like a change now and again, when I do I try a pick things that make me feel good.

Simple as that