OK, listen up kids, it's time to get technical for a second. It's obvious that there are some misunderstandings about what we call "shoulder expression". When we refer to the expression of a shoulder we are referring to its shape, or appearance. They can be concave, pagoda, roped, natural, etc. and people have a few misconceptions about how they are achieved and so are frustrated when their suitmaker or tailor is not getting the result they want. First, let's look at these three shoulder lines in isolation- they all look relatively alike. Until I add the rest of the shot- now we see that they are very different. Let's call these three a rope shoulder, a natural shoulder, and a bald shoulder. What makes them look so different? The sleeve. It should be fairly obvious that there is more going on here than just padding- the sleeve pattern is very different on each garment, the fullness distribution is very different, and they have been pressed differently. Remember this. A rope shoulder has a prominent ridge at the shoulder seam, and this ridge runs along the front crown of the sleeve. What I call a continental shoulder (not pictured- Canali, some Zegna, many European makers) will be flat at the shoulder seam but have a ridge along the front of the crown- the seams have been pressed toward the sleeve. A natural shoulder is flat at the shoulder seam and either flat or with a very light ridge along the front of the crown, the seams have been opened. A bald shoulder is knocked down at the shoulder seam and along the front of the sleeve and has a very low, flat profile, the seams are toward the coat. Manton has covered the seam pressing things in another thread. In theory, each of these expressions can be achieved with no shoulder padding or lots of shoulder padding. When the garments are being made or designed, it is most common that a more pronounced shoulder like a rope shoulder will have more shoulder padding than a natural shoulder, but it's not necessarily true. Also note that the word "natural shoulder" refers to its expression, and does not mean a shoulder with no padding in it- it just means a shoulder expression whose shape is rounder, and more like the shape of a person's shoulder. What's my point? 1.\tIf you have a garment with a rope or a very square shoulder, it is not enough to take the pad out and assume that the expression will change, that it will suddenly droop down to a round, soft shoulder. You have to remove the sleeve, cut it down and remove a lot of the fullness, and you may have to open the shoulder seam as well and adjust it for a lower shoulder (really, you should) and then reset it with a different type of sleeve wadding, also specifically designed for the shoulder expression in question. To get good results at this requires a very competent tailor. 2. It is not sufficient to say "no padding" to a tailor or suitmaker and expect the expression will be soft and round- the pattern must be made like that in the first place. So if you looking for soft and round, find a tailor who knows how to do it, or find a ready-made model whose expression is what you are looking for when buying MTM. Do not expect that the expression can be adjusted when ordering an MTM garment- if you try on a suit in the store and the shoulder is more square than you like, try a different model. Period.