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Should wing tip collar points be tucked in behind a bowtie?

clarinetplayer

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Behind, yes!
 

B|aze

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I say behind aswell, though I would say you should use a normal turn-down collar instead of a wing tip..wich IMO is more "correct"
EDIT: I'm reffering to black-tie of course. With White-tie a wing tip is the right choice
 

DWFII

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I am not an expert on this subject but I have looked at a lot of lithographs and photos from a time when wearing bowties and wing tip collars was more common than now... From what I've seen I think the flattened wing tip is a perversion of what the wing tip collar was originally intended to look like. I suspect that some overzealous laundry started ironing down the points of the collar because it was easier. And it caught on because it was easier and because attached collars were becoming the norm. Of course it looks terrible...IMO. But with the dearth of well made detachable collars no one does a wing tip well anymore. The original wing tip collars had the points sticking out horizontally from the collar--the points were like "wings"...hence the name. And they had to be stored in a collar box to prevent those wings from being crushed and...ahem...flattened. New and Lingwood sells detachable collars (I'm not sure what they have in the way of wing collars) and Vintage Shirt Company sells some pretty authentic wing collars. If the collar has horizontal (fly away) points there will never be any question of where the bow tie should reside...it is always "under" the points of the collar (not behind, not in front--under)...mechanically, it couldn't be any other way. Just my 2¢
 

lee_44106

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correct white tie means wearing wing-tip collar.

Bowties MUST be in front of the wings. That's the correct protocol.


You see pictures of people wearing the bowties behind the wings because dressing so formally nowadays is very rare, so rare that people have no clue. This include people who should have a clue like Brooks Brothers, Paul Stuart...etc.
 

Montauk

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Tucking a collar's wings behind the tie is extremely common and 100% incorrect.

DWFII is correct to observe the the wing collar is an informalization of the original Victorian stiff upright collars; the tips evolved to bend down slightly for comfort, but to actually place them BEHIND the tie indicates that one has the sartorial sophistication of a high school kid at prom. On a stiff detachable collar, moreover (which is the only way to go for this sort of thing), the wings are starched to a 45 degree angle that wouldn't even allow them to fit behind the tie. The wings should be neither in front of or behind the tie, but rather above it.
 

lee_44106

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Originally Posted by Montauk
Tucking a collar's wings behind the tie is extremely common and 100% incorrect.

DWFII is correct to observe the the wing collar is an informalization of the original Victorian stiff upright collars; the tips evolved to bend down slightly for comfort, but to actually place them BEHIND the tie indicates that one has the sartorial sophistication of a high school kid at prom. On a stiff detachable collar, moreover (which is the only way to go for this sort of thing), the wings are starched to a 45 degree angle that wouldn't even allow them to fit behind the tie. The wings should be neither in front of or behind the tie, but rather above it.


Reflectively I want to say INCORRECT, but maybe we are saying the same thing.

Refer here:

http://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic...ents/Shirt.htm
 

Montauk

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The wings of the collar should rest on TOP of the tie. This is not to say that they're in FRONT of the tie, but if you actually tuck them BEHIND the tie--as depicted on that website--that's wrong.

There exist plenty of attached collars shirts with collar wings practically stitched flat such that it is only possible to place them behind the tie. One shouldn't buy these shirts.


Originally Posted by lee_44106
Reflectively I want to say INCORRECT, but maybe we are saying the same thing.

Refer here:

http://www.blacktieguide.com/Classic...ents/Shirt.htm
 

CDFS

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Montrachet

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It really depends on the collar. If you've got an authentic wing collar, it will be quite tall, and the wings will actually be above the bowtie, making this a non-issue.
A variation of that collar in the 30's made the wings more broad by starting the turn at the base, meaning you had to tuck them behind, or you'd cover up the whole bowtie.
 

Gutman

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Originally Posted by DWFII
From what I've seen I think the flattened wing tip is a perversion of what the wing tip collar was originally intended to look like... The original wing tip collars had the points sticking out horizontally from the collar--the points were like "wings"...hence the name. And they had to be stored in a collar box to prevent those wings from being crushed and...ahem...flattened.

Originally Posted by Montauk
Tucking a collar's wings behind the tie is extremely common and 100% incorrect.

DWFII is correct to observe the the wing collar is an informalization of the original Victorian stiff upright collars; the tips evolved to bend down slightly for comfort, but to actually place them BEHIND the tie indicates that one has the sartorial sophistication of a high school kid at prom. On a stiff detachable collar, moreover (which is the only way to go for this sort of thing), the wings are starched to a 45 degree angle that wouldn't even allow them to fit behind the tie. The wings should be neither in front of or behind the tie, but rather above it.


Originally Posted by Montrachet
It really depends on the collar. If you've got an authentic wing collar, it will be quite tall, and the wings will actually be above the bowtie, making this a non-issue.

Agree completely, wing-tips under the tie is 100% crass and only possible with a non-starched floppy collar, in which case you might as well just use a normal collar (at least for black tie). Starched wing-tips are a bit harder to get in NZ nowdays since the barristers stopped using them here, but I have still kept a supply for some 20 years now especially as I don't wear white tie that often. Wing tip with black tie looks a bit formal / old-fashioned nowadays, but works well enough with a waistcoat which is what I usually do. Hard to get out of those starched collars when you're pissed though.
 

JLibourel

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The question is mostly academic to me because I doubt if I shall ever dress formally again in my life, or semi-formally for that matter. However, I did recently look through the big Taschen book on American advertising art in the 1920s (part of a series by decades). There were many pictures of men wearing wing tip collars, and I found that the illustrations were about equally divided between the bowties being in front of or behind the wing tips.

Being the casual sort of guy I am, if I had occasion to wear black tie, I would surely go with a turndown collar. Wingtip collars with black tie strike me as sort of prom-rental-ish these days.
 

amplifiedheat

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If you're stuck with a soft wing collar, tips behind. I have a Golden Fleece stiff-fronted detachable-collar shirt, and the collar does indeed go above the tie.
 

LeonM

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No. This is a function of how tall the collar is. In the old days a collar could reach the ears. Then the corners were turned down into wings for comfort. As such the tie could never reach the wings to cover them.

The Duke of Windsor relates in his memor (A Family Album) how a band leader in the 20s/30s wore his tie in front of the wings one night, by mistake. It caught on as a trend.

Leon
 

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