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Should I or shouldn't I buy... (clothing item)?

gdl203

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I’m just highlighting how f’ing weird it is to refer to a designer by his religion. When did you last talk about that Protestant designer from Chicago or this Shinto designer from Tokyo?

this convo is getting weirder by the post. It’s embarrassing at best, slightly disturbing at worst.

- the Jewish store owner based in NYC
 

Spehsmonkey

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New member: "Talk shit, post fit"
Guys who never post a photo of themselves: "OK"

 

XWT

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I’m just highlighting how f’ing weird it is to refer to a designer by his religion. When did you last talk about that Protestant designer from Chicago or this Shinto designer from Tokyo?

this convo is getting weirder by the post. It’s embarrassing at best, slightly disturbing at worst.

- the Jewish store owner based in NYC
You know just as well as I do that the jewish identity transcedes the border between religion and ethnicity.
I pointed out your double standard regarding navajo iconography, where Ralph Lauren can do it but Silver Ostrich can’t.

Btw your friend Derek made references to Ralph Lauren’s religious and cultural identity numerous times on his blog, which you sponsor, and you never threw a fit.

You’re being a dick to me and it’s uncalled for.
 

dieworkwear

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You know just as well as I do that the jewish identity transcedes the border between religion and ethnicity.
I pointed out your double standard regarding navajo iconography, where Ralph Lauren can do it but Silver Ostrich can’t.

Btw your friend Derek made references to Ralph Lauren’s religious and cultural identity numerous times on his blog, which you sponsor, and you never threw a fit.
I may be wrong, but I don't think I've ever referred to Ralph Lauren's Jewish background.

But in any case, I personally wouldn't buy an RL reproduction of a Native American piece. In this specific case, I just think the originals are better in every regard. They're cheaper, more authentic, and your money goes towards supporting the communities that made these things cool in the first place. If it's a vintage-styled piece, the distressing also typically looks better on the original/ more authentic vintage piece, rather than the piece that was made to look distressed/ worn.
 

XWT

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I may be wrong, but I don't think I've ever referred to Ralph Lauren's Jewish background.

But in any case, I personally wouldn't buy an RL reproduction of a Native American piece. In this specific case, I just think the originals are better in every regard. They're cheaper, more authentic, and your money goes towards supporting the communities that made these things cool in the first place. If it's a vintage-styled piece, the distressing also typically looks better on the original/ more authentic vintage piece, rather than the piece that was made to look distressed/ worn.
If you say so I apologize for my comment in that regard. I misremembered where I read that, but I thought I did read it from your blog. I read few blogs aside from yours and it definitely came from a blog post.

And your comment regarding the choice of your belt, you ended up with a very good looking belt and your choice proved to be good. I am actually going the same route and scouring eBay and Etsy for vintage silver buckles for a ranger belt.

I still think the accusations of cultural appropriation towards Silver Ostrich are an exageration, and that a certain someone was excessively belligerent in my regard.

edit : I did read it from you, although it was on PTO. https://putthison.com/preps-perps-a-look-at-preps-issues-with-authenticity/
 
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BlakeRVA

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Apparently Italians make good western shirts, but not belts 🧐🧐🧐

Screenshot_20210624-220557_Chrome.jpg

@hoodog I dig the belt. I'm currently eyeing a black western belt from Our Legacy or Lemaire (more Europeans doing Western cosplay 🙄), but the Silver Ostritch looks cool too. The hardware seems slightly too ornate for my taste though.
 

dieworkwear

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Apparently Italians make good western shirts, but not belts 🧐🧐🧐
I think the original argument was that many Europeans (and Japanese) are taking Native American influences and basically ripping off the style. Sometimes without doing very much to the design.

I don't know if Silver Ostrich is really appropriating Native culture, but I can see the relationship between what they do and the sort of turquoise inlay jewelry you see at Italian shops. I don't think this is the same as an Italian company making a Western shirt.
 
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zenosparadox

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A belt I can vouch for, which is currently sold out but I'm sure will be restocked, is James Coward's "Belt With No Name," which is relatively affordable when compared to some of the other options. Not as intricate as a lot of the authentic Indigenous American products (or their repros/knockoffs) but a simple western belt that's comparable to the Lemaire belt mentioned by @BlakeRVA.
 

hoodog

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Apparently Italians make good western shirts, but not belts 🧐🧐🧐

View attachment 1630020

@hoodog I dig the belt. I'm currently eyeing a black western belt from Our Legacy or Lemaire (more Europeans doing Western cosplay 🙄), but the Silver Ostritch looks cool too. The hardware seems slightly too ornate for my taste though.
Which one from OL?
 

gdl203

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Apparently Italians make good western shirts, but not belts 🧐🧐🧐

View attachment 1630020

@hoodog I dig the belt. I'm currently eyeing a black western belt from Our Legacy or Lemaire (more Europeans doing Western cosplay 🙄), but the Silver Ostritch looks cool too. The hardware seems slightly too ornate for my taste though.
jeez man, did you actually read my posts or just love to make things up like that other guy?

I am far from being a gatekeeper on authenticity or the appropriation police and specifically said I didn’t want to get into that debate. I actually enjoy reinterpretation of styles and elements from other designers - you’d never see my balk about it.

but isn’t this thread called “Should I or shouldn’t I?” and doesn’t function as a place where one comes to get other people’s opinions on buying something?

@hoodog posted that belt and my reaction was “why not get a southwestern ranger belt from the SW ?” It’s my reaction to “should I get this Italian made ranger belt?” and @hoodog’s answer to it is very valid: it’s complicated and costly to buy one from the US. I get it.

It personally makes me cringe when I see some of the style on that website that get too close to Native American jewelry for me (the turquoise inlays in particular) but then again (as I said) maybe it’s just me being uncomfortable with it. I never indicted anyone for liking it and certainly never said that the store couldn’t do it or for the matter anything about the quality of the piece.

that other poster took that opportunity to throw that disgusting line about the jew big company owner from New York which made me even more cringe (maybe because I don’t watch Carson Daly Tucker Carlson (doh) so I’m not so used to this stuff) but all I did was ask why not get one from the US and that some of the styles on that site make me feel uncomfortable.

Italians and Japanese designers can do all the western shirts and bleu de travail and cowboy boots that they want - I’m not the guy to gatekeep authenticity. But some things sometimes make me uncomfortable and that’s as good of a thread as any other to express it.

You fell into the narrative trap that XWT laid out for you when you latched onto the idea that I was debating the authenticity of making southwestern styles outside of the region entirely. I never said that actually. You’ll find plenty of styles inspired by other clothes and countries in our store, you don’t need to dig that deep. I’m ok with Western shirts made anywhere as long as they’re good stuff.
 
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XWT

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that other poster took that opportunity to throw that disgusting line about the jew big company owner from New York which made me even more cringe (maybe because I don’t watch Carson Daly so I’m not so used to this stuff) but all I did was ask why not get one from the US and that some of the styles on that site make me feel uncomfortable.
That was absolutely not what I did.

A mention of judaism doesn’t immediately amount to hate speech. The fact that you’re getting hung up on this tells me volumes about you and how you engage with people you don’t know.

RL is one of the most successful brands in the world, and Ralph Lauren has a worldly cultural identity. The fact that you called out Italians for doing something RRL has been doing for years puzzled me and I pointed out the disconnect.

I’m not the man you think I am and I don’t have to accept being accused of racism because you’re trigger happy to get into arguments with people you know nothing about.

You should also benefit from realizing that I didn’t quote you or tag you in my post out of respect for the fact that you said you didn’t want to discuss the topic.

Much like you, French is my first language. I don’t get to speak English a lot outside of my online presence so sometimes I can word things in ways that aren’t entirely what I mean. I am also not American so the kind of cultural elements you associate with me are mostly unknown to my own experience.
 

XWT

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@gdl203

I don't like where this is, nor where it is going so I'm gonna try to do this right.

I apologize for the way I engaged with this conversation regarding the complicated topic of cultural appropriation. I brought up Ralph Lauren's religion as part of his identity without realizing it could constitude something controversial because my French-Canadian-part-Abenaki ass doesn't have to deal with this specific type of racist dogwhistling, so it didn't occur to me that it could be taken as such.

You fell into the narrative trap that XWT laid out for you when you latched onto the idea that I was debating the authenticity of making southwestern styles outside of the region entirely. I never said that actually. You’ll find plenty of styles inspired by other clothes and countries in our store, you don’t need to dig that deep. I’m ok with Western shirts made anywhere as long as they’re good stuff.
Call me stupid if you want (and I'm pretty sure you will) but I legitimately understood that you said the Navajo themes being used by Italians weren't ok. I pointed out RRL because I thought you had stocked their Navajo inspired cardigans in the past.

Now I'm gonna ask you to please stop being mean to me.

1624623903009.png
 

Chaconne

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It would probably help if people who post here were more specific in what they are hesitant about with the item. Like if I posted two military inspected jackets from say Kapital and Visvim I would make it clear I was only asking which one is cooler looking and had no interest in which was more authentic. Otherwise, one could easily assume I was looking for an authentic repro type thing.
For the racial thing, I really do think XWT only said Jewish to emphasize that Ralph was not Native American.That’s all I’ll say about that.
 

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