Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[DWFII]

I don’t know anyone who would use paste to hold a sole in place, I don’t see how it would work either as it would need to be held in place until it’s dry. It sets quite hard and isn’t known for its flexibility either. Worth noting that traditionally we use tarred felt as a filler, the rubber solution doesn’t stick to it very well before breaking down so it’s a very fugitive fixative. Stitches are where it’s at long term

No, I understand and I agree--stitches are Best Practices. But as you, yourself, mentioned, once upon a time (and the long time Traditional method), was to mount the outsole with a nail... and some would say paste as well (seems to me there was a recent post either here or on IG where a well respected maker was exploring the old ways of mounting the outsole and he was using paste, IIRC).

And don't you use paste when building a heel base?

I try to use paste whereever I can...of course, I was taught to use All-Purpose cement (neoprene) but, tbh, I hate it.

Almost as much as I hate nails.

 

[rab]

All the talk of adhesives for temporary and stitches being long term... I get it. But what do you use for closing the channel after stitching. Need/want that to be permanent, but seems a common problem area.

 

[ntempleman]

I’ve never considered trying paste for the sole, but it’s usually used to mount the heel lifts along with nails. I’ve not tried the nail through the forepart either, can’t imagine trying to explain that to the client. “Oh yes sir, it’s always been like this”. Saying that, my historic reissue Les Paul uses the old dyes and construction that leads to all sorts of aesthetic flaws in the guitar but that’s the charm, maybe there’s a similar market in shoes

 

[DWFII]

All the talk of adhesives for temporary and stitches being long term... I get it. But what do you use for closing the channel after stitching. Need/want that to be permanent, but seems a common problem area.

Me too...kind of soured me on horizontal channels. If you use paste (and I know some do) it will get wet, breakdown and it is fugitive, anyway.. The upshot is that the channel 'flap' comes lose and gets real ragged, very quickly, relatively speaking...and almost looks worse than stitching aloft, if that's possible.

I don't like to use the AP either (just as a matter of principle) so I usually resort to a waterproof PVC. Of course, that means clamping or a sole press. Bottom line, I've never run across a good answer.

That said, when I 'channel stitich', I cut a channel that is 45° and that helps to reduce the raggedness significantly.

 

[DWFII]

I’ve never considered trying paste for the sole, but it’s usually used to mount the heel lifts along with nails. I’ve not tried the nail through the forepart either, can’t imagine trying to explain that to the client. “Oh yes sir, it’s always been like this”. Saying that, my historic reissue Les Paul uses the old dyes and construction that leads to all sorts of aesthetic flaws in the guitar but that’s the charm, maybe there’s a similar market in shoes

Same here. Although there used to be a 'stamp' that was driven into mellow leather right over the nail hole. That's extra ornamentation!

 

[ntempleman]

Tend to use rubber solution for that and it hold up ok. Never noticed it unflapping myself

 

[razmaftei]

Hello there,

My father, aged 70, told me they used to mount the outsoles with homemade paste and three nails when he was an apprentice. After stitching they would drive a woodpeg in each hole that the nails left.

Also at the workshop where i trained we would cut like more of 30 degree angled channels not starting at the edge of the sole but a few millimeters to the inside, and glue them close with the same type of paste.

 

[PhilJB]

My father, aged 70, told me they used to mount the outsoles with homemade paste and three nails when he was an apprentice. After stitching they would drive a woodpeg in each hole that the nails left.

I've tried pasting the outsole. The shoes look fine, but at the ball joint where the shoes flex most you can see a thin line where the welt is no longer bonded to the outsole. The shoes are fine in everyday use except they squeak at this point. Is there something I should be doing so they don't squeak or do yours squeak as well?

I wondered also if you can stitch the outsole while it's still damp or if you need to let the paste set and outsole dry before stitching?

 

[DWFII]

The shoes are fine in everyday use except they squeak at this point. Is there something I should be doing so they don't squeak or do yours squeak as well?

Anytime leather is rubbing against leather the shoes will creak. So if you fill the forepart with leather...and maybe even cork...you'll get creaks unless you use cement.

Felt and, traditionally, tarred felt is the way to go when using paste.

I wondered also if you can stitch the outsole while it's still damp or if you need to let the paste set and outsole dry before stitching?

It doesn't have to be either/or. Allow the paste and the outsole to dry, preferrably in a press. Then re-wet the outsole along the stitchline before stitching.

IMO....

 

[PhilJB]

It doesn't have to be either/or. Allow the paste and the outsole to dry, preferrably in a press. Then re-wet the outsole along the stitchline before stitching.

Yes, that's what I did (without the press).

I recall this Instagram picture where the sole is being stitched without any glue at all:

Anytime leather is rubbing against leather the shoes will creak. So if you fill the forepart with leather...and maybe even cork...you'll get creaks unless you use cement.

The squeak/creak is where the welt rubs against the outsole at the ball joint. The shoe is filled in the forepart and its not this that squeaks (latterly I've been introduced to tarred felt, courtesy of Nicholas Templeman). I'm using the polyester based thread (Dacron) which has more stretch than linen and I wondered if that might have contributed or if all shoes with a pasted outsole squeak?

 

[DWFII]

or if all shoes with a pasted outsole squeak?

Well, from conversations with my friend, who is one of the foremost shoe historians in the world, 'creaks' (that's the historical term) were not only common but even desired at certain times in the past.

Beyond that, rubber cement is a late 19th century invention ('rubber solution') but given the impermanence of modern formulations, probably not much better than paste.

Wasn't until neoprene cement came along (patent granted to Firestone Tire and Rubber in 1957) that shoemakers started moving away from paste for good and all.

But that said, celluloid cement was also used to attach outsoles and for repair work, although always with a press, simply because it is not a contact cement. It's acetone based and used much like paste but the bond is stronger...a lot stronger. Don't know the origins of celluloid cement but it's been around a long time. FWIW, cue balls for billiards were sometimes made of celluloid, in lieu of ivory...and would occasionally explode when struck hard.

 

[DWFII]

The squeak/creak is where the welt rubs against the outsole at the ball joint. I'm using the polyester based thread (Dacron) which has more stretch than linen

The only suggestion that comes to mind is to stitch a little closer to the upper and trim a little closer to the stitching. And maybe use a more Traditional (rosin based) wax, if you're not already, and tighten the stitches a little tighter... although this can be a little problematic as well. I always pull very hard from the welt side and moderately (to control the appearance of the stitches) from the outsole side.

 

[PhilJB]

Next time the opportunity arises I'll try again with paste, as you suggest above and also with linen thread. And I'll take the shoe off the last once the outsole is stitched (before heel building and finishing) and see if it squeaks. It will be easier to rebuild with cement if necessary.

Your mention of tarred felt made me wonder if the old tarred felt was made with bitumen tar or pine tar. Today it's bitumen, but what did it used to be?

 

[DWFII]

I don't think the dacron thread is a problem provided you have a good wax, and do a 'lock' before tightening.

The tarred felt that I'm talking about... and almost certainly the same as NT is talking about... is Irish Flax felt and I think it is bitumen, but I don't know for sure. It's an old (older than me) and traditional material so at one time it may have been pine tar.

In any case It does breathe.

For a more in-depth look go here

For myself, I think good, untarred wool felt mounted with paste is as good or better.

 

[rab]

I’ve had good luck putting a layer of thin fabric between leather surfaces. Specifically between a midsole and outer sole, to prevent creaking. Ymmv