Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[shoesforever]

Thanks for chiming in @DWFII ^_^

 

[DWFII]

Thanks for chiming in @DWFII ^_^

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

?

 

[j ingevaldsson]

It's true of every commercial operation. Even ones that purport to be handwelted. If you're competing in the marketplace where your competition is other commercial operations, the bottom line rules. The slide is near-as-nevermind inevitable. One of the best and most highly regarded RTW companies is now offering cement sole construction. And touting and selling it at premium prices.

I suspect that a lot of makers...high end makers...that once used leather toe stiffs, that built their customer base and their reputation using leather toe stiffs, have switched to celastic. It's much, much faster and cheaper than leather

Well it’s surely not easy to be a RTW manufacturer these days. If you keep the quality level and raise prices, you get **** for that. If you try to keep prices to at least a similar level (inflation included) with same upper leather quality and then do other shortcuts in making, then you get **** for that.. ?

Since leather prices are going up the way they are, and it’s increasingly difficult to get a hold of good leathers, people have to understand that something have to give.

Regarding the neighbouring topic on luxury fashion houses and their affect on the shoe industry, it’s not all bad, I’d say. Even if they do stuff like expensive cemented shoe ranges etc. in many cases they also put efforts in the base and the things we as shoe nerds like. Wrote about it in this article a while back.

 

[deez shoes]

Well it’s surely not easy to be a RTW manufacturer these days. If you keep the quality level and raise prices, you get **** for that. If you try to keep prices to at least a similar level (inflation included) with same upper leather quality and then do other shortcuts in making, then you get **** for that.. ?

Since leather prices are going up the way they are, and it’s increasingly difficult to get a hold of good leathers, people have to understand that something have to give.

Regarding the neighbouring topic on luxury fashion houses and their affect on the shoe industry, it’s not all bad, I’d say. Even if they do stuff like expensive cemented shoe ranges etc. in many cases they also put efforts in the base and the things we as shoe nerds like. Wrote about it in this article a while back.

The problem is that at the end of the day lack of transparency wins. I would rather find out first from the business and not some random YouTube video.

 

[DWFII]

Well it’s surely not easy to be a RTW manufacturer these days.

It's hard all over...my heart bleeds for those companies that actually have to (or at least feel the pressure) deliver on the quality they purport to champion, rationalizations and weasel words (not you) aside.

If you keep the quality level and raise prices, you get **** for that. If you try to keep prices to at l east a similar level (inflation included) with same upper leather quality and then do other shortcuts in making, then you get **** for that.. ?

How hard do you think it is, to keep quality up and compete, for bespoke makers who actually care about intrinsic quality rather than apparent quality....substantive quality rather than superficial quality? How much crap ("****" to take a cue from you), even on StyleForum, comes filtering down on the heads of bespoke makers?--who have less of a profit margin than the RTW makers, if only because they are not cutting corners somewhere?

And if only because...from lack of understanding or indifference...so many people feel compelled to make excuses or dismiss all objective measures of quality in order to justify their own apathy and less-than-rigourous choices with regard to the self image and the posture they wish to project.

Since leather prices are going up the way they are, and it’s increasingly difficult to get a hold of good leathers....while giving due deference to expediency and the bottom line, (FTFY)..., people have to understand that something have to give.

That would be good...admirable even...if they (and not to forget the makers) would, as readily give up the pretense and the deception that goes along with spending most of your energy trying to convince your peers / customers that you're an exemplar of style and quality.

 

[DWFII]

One other 'distasteful' (for some) reality / observation--the manufacturers are reaping what they have sown. When all is said and done, when you've convinced your customer base that paperboard insoles...or celastic toe stiffeners, or paper heel stacks, GYW, cement construction, etc....are "Traditional quality" and good enough, the demand for really good leather insoles, esp. those cut from the shoulder, falls off. And when the demand falls off, the production falls off. And often, when the production falls off, the skills, techniques, materials, chemicals (in the case of tanning) disappears.

So if the RTW companies are having a hard time finding good leathers they need only look in the mirror and consider the decades long PR campaign to convince the marketplace (and the sources) that good enough is as good as it gets.

It would appear that when something has to be given up...as you suggest...and esp. (and almost invariably) for the sake of the bottom line, everybody loses. The best you can do in such a situation is redouble your PR campaign to convince the public that, all objective evidence to the contrary, they're really still getting "Traditional" quality, or the "finest", etc...

 

[j ingevaldsson]

It's hard all over...my heart bleeds for those companies that actually have to (or at least feel the pressure) deliver on the quality they purport to champion, rationalizations and weasel words (not you) aside.



How hard do you think it is, to keep quality up and compete, for bespoke makers who actually care about intrinsic quality rather than apparent quality....substantive quality rather than superficial quality? How much crap ("****" to take a cue from you), even on StyleForum, comes filtering down on the heads of bespoke makers?--who have less of a profit margin than the RTW makers, if only because they are not cutting corners somewhere?

And if only because...from lack of understanding or indifference...so many people feel compelled to make excuses or dismiss all objective measures of quality in order to justify their own apathy and less-than-rigourous choices with regard to the self image and the posture they wish to project.



That would be good...admirable even...if they (and not to forget the makers) would, as readily give up the pretense and the deception that goes along with spending most of your energy trying to convince your peers / customers that you're an exemplar of style and quality.

Since commercial RTW was the topic, that’s what I wrote about.

If we are to talk about bespoke operations, the understanding I have is that since material is a smaller part of the total price than for (a vast majority at least) RTW makers, price increases haven’t been as problematic in general here, but the increasing difficulty to find good leather is a *****.

The fact that bespoke shoemaking is a tough child to make a living on, I’ve highlighted many times though. That said, if one believes that factory-made Goodyear welted shoes are something to head into to make nice money, than one should think again, it’s a low margin industry with fierce competition, where very few earn any big many and a majority is struggling just to stay in the black.

One other 'distasteful' (for some) reality / observation--the manufacturers are reaping what they have sown. When all is said and done, when you've convinced your customer base that paperboard insoles...or celastic toe stiffeners, or paper heel stacks, GYW, cement construction, etc....are "Traditional quality" and good enough, the demand for really good leather insoles, esp. those cut from the shoulder, falls off. And when the demand falls off, the production falls off. And often, when the production falls off, the skills, techniques, materials, chemicals (in the case of tanning) disappears.

So if the RTW companies are having a hard time finding good leathers they need only look in the mirror and consider the decades long PR campaign to convince the marketplace (and the sources) that good enough is as good as it gets.

It would appear that when something has to be given up...as you suggest...and esp. (and almost invariably) for the sake of the bottom line, everybody loses. The best you can do in such a situation is redouble your PR campaign to convince the public that, all objective evidence to the contrary, they're really still getting "Traditional" quality, or the "finest", etc...

My view is that we will always need brands who take a lots of shortcuts from making “the best possible shoes”. One have to be realistic and look to what day and age we are currently in. We can talk with sparkling eyes about the good old days, but they will never come again, whether we like it or not.

In a world where 95% (or something like that) wears ****** shoes produced of subpar materials with the cheapest constructions, every person who go spend a bit more on a pair of Goodyear welted shoes, even if it has celastic heel and toe stiffeners and leather board heel stacks and ****** insoles and neoprene glue all over the place, is a win in my eyes. Cause those shoes at least have had some effort behind them, the material and making has to at least some extent been made in a sustainable way by decently paid workers, maybe the person will even resole them once.

And very importantly, it’s those shoes that will drag people in to the better and better stuff, also to the real deal bespoke shoes etc. A big part of all bespoke customers comes from some factory made Goodyear welted stuff as introductions into this world, and when they start to do their research and look passed the marketing gimmicks (wrote about one of many problems with that part just the other day on the blog) they will learn more and get more interest, realise it’s worth to spend more, they start climbing the quality and price ladder, and so on. Not everyone of course, but if we hadn’t Goodyear welted factory made easily accessible stuff, where shortcuts of all kinds have been taken, the market for bespoke shoes would be almost non-existing, the latter wouldn’t make it without the first.

 

[deez shoes]

Since commercial RTW was the topic, that’s what I wrote about.

If we are to talk about bespoke operations, the understanding I have is that since material is a smaller part of the total price than for (a vast majority at least) RTW makers, price increases haven’t been as problematic in general here, but the increasing difficulty to find good leather is a *****.

The fact that bespoke shoemaking is a tough child to make a living on, I’ve highlighted many times though. That said, if one believes that factory-made Goodyear welted shoes are something to head into to make nice money, than one should think again, it’s a low margin industry with fierce competition, where very few earn any big many and a majority is struggling just to stay in the black.



My view is that we will always need brands who take a lots of shortcuts from making “the best possible shoes”. One have to be realistic and look to what day and age we are currently in. We can talk with sparkling eyes about the good old days, but they will never come again, whether we like it or not.

In a world where 95% (or something like that) wears ****** shoes produced of subpar materials with the cheapest constructions, every person who go spend a bit more on a pair of Goodyear welted shoes, even if it has celastic heel and toe stiffeners and leather board heel stacks and ****** insoles and neoprene flue all over the place, is a win in my eyes. Cause those shoes at least have had some effort behind them, the material and making has to at least some extent been made in a sustainable way by decently paid workers, maybe the person will even resole them once.

And very importantly, it’s those shoes that will drag people in to the better and better stuff, also to the real deal bespoke shoes etc. A big part of all bespoke customers comes from some factory made Goodyear welted stuff as introductions into this world, and when they start to do their research and look passed the marketing gimmicks (wrote about one of many problems with that part just the other day on the blog) they will learn more and get more interest, realise it’s worth to spend more, they start climbing the quality and price ladder, and so on. Not everyone of course, but if we hadn’t Goodyear welted factory made easily accessible stuff, where shortcuts of all kinda have been taken, the market for bespoke shoes would be almost non-existing, the latter wouldn’t make it without the first.

You do make a good point. I started off with crappy cemented, moved to gyw, then rtw HW, and now I'm considering only bespoke.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

You do make a good point. I started off with crappy cemented, moved to gyw, then rtw HW, and now I'm considering only bespoke.

I’ve walked the same way myself the past decade. My first Goodyear welted shoes was a pair of Loake Aldwych, and I thought they were extremely expensive at the €180 I paid (PLUS shipping from the U.K. to Sweden). I still have that pair, although now they are the cheapest and least quality pair in my closet (counting out some sneakers etc), but I loved them, and they got me in on the journey I’m still exploring.

 

[deez shoes]

I’ve walked the same way myself the past decade. My first Goodyear welted shoes was a pair of Loake Aldwych, and I thought they were extremely expensive at the €180 I paid (PLUS shipping from the U.K. to Sweden). I still have that pair, although now they are the cheapest and least quality pair in my closet (counting out some sneakers etc), but I loved them, and they got me in on the journey I’m still exploring.

GYW, gateway drug to bespoke shoes!

 

[PhilJB]

I've done the same, GYW (Churches, Cheaneys etc) for many years, became disillusioned with them, especially in recent years. After one particular trip to Jermyn Street visiting just about every shoe shop, eventually understanding (with the help of some kind salemen) the only way was up.

 

[ajd578]

My view is that we will always need brands who take a lots of shortcuts from making “the best possible shoes”.

I feel like people are often more or less talking past Mr. Frommer's points rather than addressing them. I have the same problem with the dishonesty, more so than the product itself.

Do you think that fewer people would make it to "the best possible shoes" if RTW makers were more transparent about their materials and methods? If their customers didn't get so defensive when someone showed them what's actually in that heel stack, or counter?

 

[shoesforever]

I do agree that Goodyear welted are the gateway to bespoke as well. Without factory made shoes, almost no young customers would get into bespoke.

 

[j ingevaldsson]

I feel like people are often more or less talking past Mr. Frommer's points rather than addressing them. I have the same problem with the dishonesty, more so than the product itself.

Do you think that fewer people would make it to "the best possible shoes" if RTW makers were more transparent about their materials and methods? If their customers didn't get so defensive when someone showed them what's actually in that heel stack, or counter?

As I mentioned in my comment, I have loads of times addressed the marketing problems in various ways, and agree on how problematic it can be. DWF already knows this as well.

I paste a part from the article I linked to in my previous post, which sort of answers the question I think:
“We already have the problem with more or less every brand who make Blake stitched or Goodyear welted shoes falsely market their products as “handmade” or “handcrafted” (more about that problem in this article), now we have added another false advertising problem with the “no middlemen” thing. I feel sorry for all the people who fall for all this, who actually believe that they get “handmade shoes” that “rivals shoes at twice the price or more”. If they think that what they have received is all you get even if you pay double, why would they go spend that money? In the same way as when Blake stitched or Goodyear welted shoes are incorrectly marketed as “handmade” is damaging to those who actually do handmade, hand welted footwear, it’s damaging for “traditional brands” when lower-end shoes are being incorrectly marketed as on par with these, even if they cost half the sum. What’s a bit ironic is that these new brands often praise themselves for being the “open, honest and transparent” alternatives. We are in this vicious circle where players have to follow what other players do not to seem like an inferior player, so I can understand why brands feel pushed to go on with these incorrect marketing strategies, however it doesn’t make them more correct. And one can succeed without falling for this approach, we have brands like J FitzPatrick or Sons of Henrey as good examples, brands who say a lot of nice things about their stuff in their marketing, but where all is completely true.”

So, to summarise, I think that MORE people would find their way to “the best possible shoes” if marketing was done more fairly. Which is why it’s so problematic.

However, I don’t think that the false marketing etc is the reason for the increased difficulty of finding good leathers and the increased prices, it’s the increased demand for such leathers (so sort of the opposite, but then shoe brands aren’t the only ones looking for good quality calf leathers) and the declining quality of the raw materials that are the main issues for that.

 

[taxgenius]

As I mentioned in my comment, I have loads of times addressed the marketing problems in various ways, and agree on how problematic it can be. DWF already knows this as well.

I paste a part from the article I linked to in my previous post, which sort of answers the question I think:
“We already have the problem with more or less every brand who make Blake stitched or Goodyear welted shoes falsely market their products as “handmade” or “handcrafted” (more about that problem in this article), now we have added another false advertising problem with the “no middlemen” thing. I feel sorry for all the people who fall for all this, who actually believe that they get “handmade shoes” that “rivals shoes at twice the price or more”. If they think that what they have received is all you get even if you pay double, why would they go spend that money? In the same way as when Blake stitched or Goodyear welted shoes are incorrectly marketed as “handmade” is damaging to those who actually do handmade, hand welted footwear, it’s damaging for “traditional brands” when lower-end shoes are being incorrectly marketed as on par with these, even if they cost half the sum. What’s a bit ironic is that these new brands often praise themselves for being the “open, honest and transparent” alternatives. We are in this vicious circle where players have to follow what other players do not to seem like an inferior player, so I can understand why brands feel pushed to go on with these incorrect marketing strategies, however it doesn’t make them more correct. And one can succeed without falling for this approach, we have brands like J FitzPatrick or Sons of Henrey as good examples, brands who say a lot of nice things about their stuff in their marketing, but where all is completely true.”

So, to summarise, I think that MORE people would find their way to “the best possible shoes” if marketing was done more fairly. Which is why it’s so problematic.

I do my part on Instagram, challenging every advertisement with $160 shoes marketed as handmade. So far 1 seller has actually thanked me. The rest don't answer me or insist that they are selling handmade blake stiched shoes.