1. Styleforum Gives - Holiday Charity Auction 11: Any Three (3) Customized Ties from Vanda Fine Clothing

    We are very proud to present this year's edition of the Styleforum Holiday Charity Auctions, this year in support of the Ronald McDonald House Charities of Spokane (www.rmhcspokane.org). Each Auction lasts 24 hours. Please follow and bid on all the auctions.

    The 11th auction of the year is for any three customized ties from Vanda Fine Clothing. Please bid often and generously here

    Fok and the Styleforum Team.

    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by DWFII, Aug 23, 2014.

  1. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,468
    Likes Received:
    3,080
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    I'll be honest with you...I've done this work a number of times over the years (on my own shoes as well as well as customer's shoes), but I've never been able to get the terminology straight in my own head. It's a mental block that comes from relying too much on the computer and the Internet--I have all this...the right terminology...stored somewhere on my computer.

    The problem is, generally speaking, that there are any number of terms used to describe a whole family of similar stitches...some old and Traditionally correct, and some relatively modern. See the essay linked above.

    I came up in the Trade using "tunnel stitch" which is descriptive but not correct--it is a made up term originating in the 1960's, and it's a little hard to buck those habits.

    Anyway I'm just not sure which term will resonate with my audience anymore... which is why I included the link.

    edited for punctuation and clarity
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015


  2. shoefan

    shoefan Senior Member

    Messages:
    853
    Likes Received:
    193
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2003
    Edward Green calls the 'tunnel' stitch (I believe the technically correct term is round-closed stitch) the 'skin stitch' for the toe seam and also the apron seam on their hand-sewn models like the Dover. In fact, these two stitches are different; in the toe seam, it is a true round-closed stitch, as the thread travels parallel to the leather surface on both sides of the stitch/both pieces of leather, and it exits/enters both sides into the thickness/edge of the leather. The apron seam is actually a 'split-and-lift' stitch, as the 'tunnel' portion of the stitch only enters/exits one of the pieces of leather along the edge; the second piece of leather is pierced all the way through its thickness, as with a 'normal' stitch (traditionally called, IIRC, a stabbed stitch, since the leather is pierced by stabbing a needle (or awl) through the hide. A stitch like that on a traditional loafer/mocassin is a stabbed stitch, since both pieces of leather are pierced all the way through the thickness of the leather.


    There is additional confusion added by other firms calling a decorative stitch a 'skin stitch' (like on the Alden tassel loafer). This stitch is non-functional and only adds some detailing to what would otherwise be a very plain vamp.
     


  3. Zapasman

    Zapasman Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    682
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2014
    Location:
    España
    Do these 3 examples of split toe stichings use the "skin stich" technique with any variation or not?. Thanks.
    [​IMG]
     


  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,468
    Likes Received:
    3,080
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    
    Left to right... L: apron stabbed, I think (hard to tell from the photo--on edit, may very well be split and lift). Toe skin stitched/round closed M: all machine stitched R: apron and toe ornamentally stitched--superficial IOW...not a seam.. It's worth noting that skin stitching/round closing is hand work and considered a fairly difficult skill to implement...depending on the leather.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015


  5. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,471
    Likes Received:
    902
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Location:
    London, UK
    
    In the left shoe, apron- and toe seam are fully hand-stitched with skin and tunnel stitch (or whatever term you prefer). The middle shoe is fully machine-stitched; the toe seam is "open" (like a back-seam) and the apron is laid on and stitched from above with "two passes (two rows of stitching). The right shoe has a decorative hand-stitch; the stitching is non-functional as neither toe- nor apron seam join two pieces of leather.
     


  6. Zapasman

    Zapasman Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    682
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2014
    Location:
    España
    Thanks both of you. Very instructive.
     


  7. vmss

    vmss Senior Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    177
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Location:
    Curacao, Dutch Caribbean
    Which country did the apron split toe derived from? Like brogues are from the farmland in Scotland for letting water go through out the shoes. What about the hand stitched apron split toe?

    I have seen the apron stitch in Goodyear shoes like the EG Dover for example. Are these more for looks or does it serve a purpose?
    I read somewhere that the look of hand stitch apron toe split is very popular among Italians.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015


  8. vmss

    vmss Senior Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    177
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Location:
    Curacao, Dutch Caribbean
    [​IMG]

    Can somebody tell me if these are hand stitched, machine stitched or decoration? Thanks!
     


  9. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,468
    Likes Received:
    3,080
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    
    The apron looks to be "split and lift," the toe is stabbed. Both likely done by hand.
     


  10. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,471
    Likes Received:
    902
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2002
    Location:
    London, UK
    

    In Europe a shoe with apron and a split toe is generally known as Norwegian (style).To complicate matters, there is also Norwegian construction, which can be used for almost any shoe style. In the States, the apron and split toe is known as Algonquin.

    I have no idea who was quicker off he mark: the Norwegians or the Algonquin.
     


  11. mw313

    mw313 Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    2,452
    Likes Received:
    492
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2014
    Location:
    New Jersey/Philadelphia
    

    I know that is such a tough thing to get across sometimes. It makes things worse when you add in norvegese and Norwegian welt construction.
     


  12. vmss

    vmss Senior Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    177
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Location:
    Curacao, Dutch Caribbean
    "The apron looks to be "split and lift," the toe is stabbed. Both likely done by hand"

    What do you mean stabbed? Does it differ from the picture of the left shoe that is hand stitched or the EG Dover?
     


  13. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    8,468
    Likes Received:
    3,080
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2008
    Location:
    The Highlands of Central Oregon
    

    Two pieces of leather are laid together surface to surface...might be grain to grain, might be flesh to flesh, might even be flesh to grain. Then holes are "stabbed" perpendicular to the substance/surfaces of the leather and a needle or bristles go through the holes carrying the thread.

    Stabbing is fundamentally the same stitch you see being made by a sewing machine...simply done by hand.

    And, of course, it predates machine stitching by countless centuries.

    If you think of round closing as "tunnels stitching," you can think of stabbing as "puncture stitching."

    "Split and lift," as it is being used in this discussion, is a combination of both.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015


  14. vmss

    vmss Senior Member

    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    177
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2015
    Location:
    Curacao, Dutch Caribbean
    Thanks for the explanation.
     


  15. Zapasman

    Zapasman Distinguished Member

    Messages:
    2,285
    Likes Received:
    682
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2014
    Location:
    España
    [​IMG]

    Machine stiched apron and toe seam stabbed here?.
     


Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by