Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

[DWFII]

Well, I have to chuckle (no disrespect) because the second photo is one of mine.

Aside from one observation regarding the first photo, I suspect it would be more useful for me to comment on my own work rather than interpret someone else's.

In the first photo, the channel have been beveled inward from the holdfast. The leather has been cut away and removed to create that bevel. You can see that more clearly on the medial side than the lateral so maybe the insole is not finished.

As for my own work, I do not cut a bevel in the insole...ever. I cut the channel vertically into the substance of the insole and, prior to holing I moisten the leather and open and lay the sides back with a stitch prick or a bone. The bevel is created with pressure alone...no leather is removed...and because of that, it is easily re-closed when inseaming is complete.

And yes, beveling by either approach--pressure or or substance removal--makes holing easier and more accurate.

If leather is removed, it creates a "void" under the foot that must be filled or the weight of the body risks collapsing that space and weakening the insole. Some makers preserve the strip they cut out while beveling the channel and re-place it before bottoming. Some don't do anything.

I seldom it ever feel any need to fill the insole. I do it...with wool felt...only to prevent creaking when leather rubs against leather (insole against outsole).

 

[ThunderMarch]

Thank you for your insight once again, DW.
Just curious, if you seldom feel the need to use any filling, and do so mainly to prevent the creaking of leather rubbing against leather... would using paste directly between the insole and outsole, be sufficient to prevent this movement / creaking?

 

[DWFII]

Thank you for your insight once again, DW.
Just curious, if you seldom feel the need to use any filling, and do so mainly to prevent the creaking of leather rubbing against leather... would using paste directly between the insole and outsole, be sufficient to prevent this movement / creaking?

No. Certainly not for very long. Nothing can prevent that movement.

Beyond that, paste is fundamentally hard...even brittle, to some extent. Eventually...probably quite rapidly, in fact...the paste would break down, fragment, and turn to dust. Not just because it naturally wants to do that but simply because the flexing of the soles(s) breaks it up.

I say "not just" to underscore that paste almost invariably begins as a powder--it is wheat flour or potato flour, etc..

On the other hand, cement such as shoemakers use, begins life as rubber so it is always flexible. And always occlusive.

And on the other, other hand, there is no need nor mechanical advantage in preventing the soles from flexing. In fact, they must if the shoe is to be comfortable.

FWIW...and just to offer a bit of perspective...at one point in time creaking was considered highly desirable because it told the world you had a new pair of shoes.

 

[ThunderMarch]

Thank you for explaining DW.
I am very thankful then, that someone thought of using an intermediary layer, to eliminate the creaking.
Wearing a pair of creaking shoes sounds like a terrible idea.
No pun intended.

 

[vmss]

I tried to search info on the web about norvegese big welt shoes, but couldn't get info about the purpose of norvegese construction made by Italian shoemakers. I know that in the past they were made for hiking boots for water proof and rough terrain.
Does the norvegese construction have any purpose in shoes made by Italian shoemakers or is it purely aesthetics to show their abilities as a shoemaker? Are they designed more for foul weather !

Are these shoes comfortable to wear for long period of walking or standing all day long?

 

[DWFII]

I tried to search info on the web about norvegese big welt shoes, but couldn't get info about the purpose of norvegese construction made by Italian shoemakers. I know that in the past they were made for hiking boots for water proof and rough terrain.
Does the norvegese construction have any purpose in shoes made by Italian shoemakers or is it purely aesthetics to show their abilities as a shoemaker? Are they designed more for foul weather !

Are these shoes comfortable to wear for long period of walking or standing all day long?

Left this for a day or so to give people that may have more experience an opportunity to weigh in.

I don't have much hands-on experience with norvegese construction or any kind of "big welt" construction. some like it. I don't.

My wife and I had a dance teacher some years ago who was a top national "10 dance" competitor. He made a statement that I have always thought applied to many fields--he said "Big gestures just look clumsy...and stupid." Of course, he was talking about the waltz and not shoes. But elegance is where you find it and restraint is always an indication of refinement and finesse.

As far as comfort is concerned...all other things being equal, I can't imagine why they wouldn't be just as comfortable as any other style of shoe. Probably heavier.

All this is my professional opinion but since no one else wanted to acknowledge the question, there it is. Maybe you'll get other answers now...if only (as is often the case) for the sake of argument.

 

[Zapasman]

I love the aesthetics of big stitches (Goyser and Norvegese chained) for some different rough boots to wear out of the city streets (not in a Balmoral boots, of course). I also value the shoemaker´s stitching work (like a seamless wholecut shoe), so the foul weather is not a point for me (got some trekking boots). With regards to comfort, you will not find any problem as far as the materials and componets are high quality and technique used comes from a reputable maker. My big stitches boots are more comfortable than my Meermin oxfords HW shoes. Comfort/functionality/durability is not an issue with big stitches in a premium pair of shoes. Either you like them or not (I hate tassels loafers)

 

[DWFII]

apropos of a discussion on the previous page:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...eedf1627882_story.html?utm_term=.7e877c5f1cf1

The U.S. organic market now counts more than $40 billion in annual sales and includes products imported from about 100 countries. To enforce the organic rules across this vast industry, the USDA allows farmers to hire and pay their own inspectors to certify them as “USDA Organic.” Industry defenders say enforcement is robust.

But the problems at an entity such as Aurora suggest that even large, prominent players can fall short of standards without detection.

With milk, the critical issue is grazing. Organic dairies are required to allow the cows to graze daily throughout the growing season — that is, the cows are supposed to be grass-fed, not confined to barns and feedlots. This method is considered more natural and alters the constituents of the cows’ milk in ways consumers deem beneficial.

But during visits by The Washington Post to Aurora’s High Plains complex across eight days last year, signs of grazing were sparse, at best. Aurora said its animals were out on pasture day and night, but during most Post visits the number of cows seen on pasture numbered only in the hundreds. At no point was any more than 10 percent of the herd out. A high-resolution satellite photo taken in mid-July by DigitalGlobe, a space imagery vendor, shows a typical situation — only a few hundred on pasture.

The milk from Aurora also indicates that its cows may not graze as required by organic rules. Testing conducted for The Post by Virginia Tech scientists shows that on a key indicator of grass-feeding, the Aurora milk matched conventional milk, not organic.

Finally, The Post contacted the inspectors who visited Aurora’s High Plains dairy and certified it as “USDA Organic.” Did the inspectors have evidence that the Aurora cows met the grazing requirement?

It turns out that they were poorly positioned to know.

The inspectors conducted the annual audit well after grazing season — in November. That means that during the annual audit, inspectors would not have seen whether the cows were grazing as required, a breach of USDA inspection policy.

“We would expect that inspectors are out there during the grazing season,” said Miles McEvoy, chief of the National Organic Program at the USDA. He said that the grazing requirement is “a critical compliance component of an organic livestock operation.”

 

[EnglishShoes]

Hey @DWFII I only found this thread recently but I am working through it from the start and am learning A LOT of useful information on the finer details of hand made shoes and how RTW makers try to emulate them.

Just a quick note to say thanks for spending the time sharing your knowledge and experience in this matter. I particularly like the photos showing examples of what you are describing.

Keep up the good work.

 

[DWFII]

Yr. H

Hey @DWFII I only found this thread recently but I am working through it from the start and am learning A LOT of useful information on the finer details of hand made shoes and how RTW makers try to emulate them.

Just a quick note to say thanks for spending the time sharing your knowledge and experience in this matter. I particularly like the photos showing examples of what you are describing.

Keep up the good work.

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

 

[deez shoes]

@DWFII , I've heard that it's possible to have a shoemaker re-last shoes on a smaller last in order to drop a size by half. Is this true? If so, will it cause any damage to the shoes or negatively impact its wear?

 

[DWFII]

@DWFII , I've heard that it's possible to have a shoemaker re-last shoes on a smaller last in order to drop a size by half. Is this true? If so, will it cause any damage to the shoes or negatively impact its wear?

If they are handwelted, it won't negatively affect the shoes at all...assuming the shoemaker is relatively competent.

If they are GY, it nearly has to be done at the factory...else it's pretty dicey just getting them back together and fitting a smaller last correctly. And that might result in some damage.

Otherwise the wear should not be affected at all.

 

[deez shoes]

If they are handwelted, it won't negatively affect he shoes at all...assuming the shoemaker is relatively competent.

If they are GY, it nearly has to be done at the factory...else it's pretty dicey just getting them back together and fitting a smaller last correctly. And that might result in some damage.

Otherwise the wear should not be affected at all.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[deez shoes]

If they are handwelted, it won't negatively affect the shoes at all...assuming the shoemaker is relatively competent.

If they are GY, it nearly has to be done at the factory...else it's pretty dicey just getting them back together and fitting a smaller last correctly. And that might result in some damage.

Otherwise the wear should not be affected at all.

The shoes in question are indeed handwelted. Unfortunately, I was just told that the shoemaker can't do it "in a good way."

I'm curious as to what kind of challenges a shoemaker may run into when re-lasting a handwelted shoe on a half-size smaller last. The shoes don't have any caps or designs on the tip. Would this process include holding the shoe on the smaller last for a couple of months?

 

[DWFII]

Well, "in a good way" can just be another way of saying "I don't want the hassle." Or "I don't want to mess with perfection."

It's true that some elements...esp. toe broguing and so forth...will be misplaced or distorted by relasting to a smaller size. And it can be a lot of work esp. since the toe stiffener will probably have to be replaced. If All-Purpose cement has been used in mounting the toe stiffener, it is doubly...no, triply...difficult and fraught with some danger.

And most shoemakers will have some qualms about the distortion of the "lines" of the shoe that will occur during re-lasting. But a half size is only 5/32"...more or less...in length.

All that said, you didn't ask if it would be pretty. You asked if it would cause damage to the shoe or impact the wear. And done mindfully neither of these issues are significant.

I have relasted to longer lasts as well as shorter lasts. IIRC, ntempleman has also.

It's not easy but re-lasting to a larger size is generally speaking harder than relasting to a smaller size.

Bottom line, it can be done.