Shoemaker and Bootmaker Comparison Thread

[dddrees]

I thought it might be a good idea to start a thread where we could discuss and compare various shoemakers and bookmakers both pros and cons in one thread.

I figured as much as we tend to Luv certain brands it's just as important to list the cons with regards to either quality, ease of purchasing or retail market, and any other inherent con that particular brand may have.

So I thought we could use the following format as a means of establishing the base line for each shoemaker before we make any comparisons we might want to make later. Whether we just establish these baselines only or further make more Indepth comparisons I can see the potential of this thread being something that especially a new member might find as being a valuable reference prior to making purchasing decisions.

For this purpose I chose the shoemaker I'm currently purchasing most of my shoes from. So I used Edward Green and the cost I used was the current avg cost of their shoes in the U.S.

Shoemaker: Edward Green
Level: Top Tier
Origin: UK Northampton
Type: RTW, MTO
Welt: GYW
Style: English
AVG Cost: $1500
Pros: Leather quality, sole quality, finishing, detail, sleeker Lasts, and unquestionable
quality control. Ability to order via MTO almost any model from the current and rather extensive
back catalogue in almost any leather or combination of
leathers in almost any color on most Lasts they make.Some exceptions,
exotics and other exceptions may cost extra. Well established retail market.
Cons. Delivery times for MTOs can vary from 4 to 12 months. Extra long delivery
delays generally only occur when shoes or boots are rejected for some reason
during the manufacturing phase. At times this can happen multiple times.
Known For: Split Toe - Dover, Boots - Galway, and Shannon
Competitors: John Lobb, Gaziano and Girling, St Crispins

 

[chogall]

Edward Green has quality control problems, e.g., some lasting problems, MTO inconsistency with small volume resellers, etc.

Don't think this thread will work, especially for fans of different brands brushing off the con's as one off black swan cases.

 

[dddrees]

Edward Green has quality control problems, e.g., some lasting problems, MTO inconsistency with small volume resellers, etc.

Don't think this thread will work, especially for fans of different brands brushing off the con's as one off black swan cases.

The only way I'll know for sure is to give it a try, time will tell.

 

[chogall]

The only way I'll know for sure is to give it a try, time will tell.

How about first update EG's info with lasting problems and MTO quality control issues first?

 

[dddrees]



How about first update EG's info with lasting problems and MTO quality control issues first?

Can you provide further details to help establish these items as facts?

 

[chogall]

Shoemaker: Saint Crispins
Price Point: Top Tier
Origin: Romania
Type: RTW, MTO
Welt: Construction: Hand sewn inseaming, machine sewn outsole
Style: Central European
AVG Cost: $1500
Pros: MTO flexibility. Last adjustment capability. Good leather. Excellent finishing. Low resoling costs. Trunk shows in many cities. Short lead time of ~3 months. Able to order with trial shoes and personal lasts.
Cons: Inconsistent leather quality. Inconsistent build quality.
Known For: Carried by the Armoury, Leather Soul, Leffot.
Competitors: John Lobb, Gaziano and Girling, other high end MTO makers.

 

[dddrees]

@chogall is it true from what I've read at times St Crispins builds shoes on the incorrect Last. That is sometimes the Last one orders is not necessarily the Last they make ones shoes on. I only have two pairs myself, both were MTOs and they came to me exactly the way they were ordered.

 

[chogall]

Can you provide further details to help establish these items as facts?

No pictures. One of my pair has different top line height. More than a few pairs posted on this forum has the patterns not aligned on the last or use generic pattern on all different lasts.

And other issues not worth turning this thread into a dissing EG discussion.

 

[chogall]

@chogall is it true from what I've read at times St Crispins builds shoes on the incorrect Last. That is sometimes the Last one orders is not necessarily the Last they make ones shoes on. I only have two pairs myself, both were MTOs and they came to me exactly the way they were ordered.

Sprezzatura. Or capriccioso. Happens with most manufacturers.

Remedies largely depend on the reseller's size or end customer's blog exposure. Smaller resellers or end customers will have to eat the mistake or their orders might be pulled. For large resellers those stock will end up on factory sale floor (or in the hands of other resellers).

 

[dddrees]



No pictures. One of my pair has different top line height.  More than a few pairs posted on this forum has the patterns not aligned on the last or use generic pattern on all different lasts.

And other issues not worth turning this thread into a dissing EG discussion.

I don't have a problem noting negative comments, nor is it that I don't believe you.its just not something I've seen so at this point I don't intend to modify my comments.However since you've brought it up its certain that others will see it and possibly confirm it as well. If we get a larger consensus then I certainly would have no problem changing my notes.

I don't see this thread being something everyone will agree with everything as much as a place to discuss and mention both good and bad points with regards to various brands of shoes.

 

[dddrees]



Sprezzatura.  Or capriccioso.  Happens with most manufacturers. 

Remedies largely depend on the reseller's size or end customer's blog exposure.  Smaller resellers or end customers will have to eat the mistake or their orders might be pulled.  For large resellers those stock will end up on factory sale floor (or in the hands of other resellers).

Just seems I've read this here SF more often with regards to St Crispins. i can't remember reading this with regards to other shoemakers.

 

[chogall]

Here's a ranking of most shoe brands/shoemakers found on a Japanese forum. It overrated some brands that don't make their own shoes.

But I find it true at least for the top shoemakers.

Gatto *used* to make extremely refined shoes (and AFAIK JL Paris initially outsource their bespoke to Gatto), not sure about now after they got acquired by Lattanzi in 2006. "There are two wonders of Rome - Sistine chapel and Gatto shoes." - King Alfonso XIII of Spain.

JL Paris and Lattanzi are definitely leader in the bespoke world, far above most others. Similar can be said for Massaro. Zintala is now part of Lattanzi. Berluti and Corthay come right below them.

EG is rated better than G&G by most Japanese literatures.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

76：GATTO
74：JOHN LOBB (PARIS)、Silvano Lattanzi
72：ZINTALA、MASSARO

70：Berluti、Corthay、EDWARD GREEN、PIERRE HARDY
68：ANTHONY CLEVERLEY、ARTIOLI、a.testoni、AUBERCY、GAZIANO&GIRLING、J.M. WESTON、Saint Crispin's、TANINO CRISCI、ZILLI、FOSTER & SON、GIUSEPPE ZANOTTI DESIGN、MANOLO BLAHNIK
66：BETTANIN & VENTURI、F.lli Giacometti、Stefano Bemer、Poulsen Skone、VASS、Sergio Rossi、RENE CAOVILLA
64：AUTHENTIC SHOE & Co、BONORA、EDUARD MEIER、Enzo Bonafe、GEORGE CLEVERLEY
　　Hall&Marks、Heinrch Dinkelacker、Napolitano Rachele
　　Santoni、Schnieder Boots、MAXVERRE、Salvatore Ferragamo、Stefano Branchini、HENRY MAXWELL、Christian Louboutin

62：Bemer's、Church's、Crockett & Jones、
　　SILVANO MAZZA、STEFANO BI、SUTOR MANTELLASSI、Walker&Gunn、Roger Vivier
60：Alden、Alfred Sargent、BOLLINI、Campanile、DUCAL、F・O・G Forest of Gingko、MASTERLLOYD
　　MORESCHI、orazio by Napolitano、Silvano Sassetti、VICINI、銀座ヨシノヤ、三陽山長、大塚製靴M-5
58：BALLY、BARRETT、CARMINA、Cheany、DI MELLA、Dieter Kuckelkorn、francheschetti、Gerard Sene
　　GIANO、GRENSON、HARRIS、JIMMY CHOO、Perfetto、REGAIN、SHETLAND FOX、Tricker's、MARK BLADOG
56：Allen-Edmonds、ENDLESS、foot the coacher、JOHN WHITE、KOKON
　　MAGNANNI、Meccariello、MEERMIN、Paraboot、POLLINI、soffice&solid、TOD'S、YANKO、ZAK、宮城興行

54：42ND ROYAL HIGHLAND、BARRATS、BARKER BLACK、BRIAN CRESS、BUCCHUS、Cento Felina、Cordwainer
　　FRANCESCO BENIGNO、HESCHUNG、JOHNSTON&MURPHY、Loake、NEW & LINGWOOD、PELUSO、Sanders、SCOTCH GRAIN
52：BRUNO MAGLI、Cole Haan、FABI、Florsheim Imperial、John Spencer
　　LAUDINO CACCIN、J.A.RAMIS、JALAN SRIWILAYA、Union Imperial、Zenobi
50：ALEJANDRO、Antonio Rufo、Berwick、Brecos、DOUCAL'S、REGAL、van Bommel、神匠
48：Calzoleria Toscana、Franco Lione、Madras、Padrone、Treading Post、Pertini

46：BOEMOS、Ecco、Kenford、Geox、VISARUNO
44：GIANCARLO MORELLI、VOICE
42：Bon Step、Florsheim、Hush Puppies
40：HYDRO-TECH

38：CEDAR CREST、Guy Laroche、HARUTA、Hawkins、Michiko London、Texcy Luxe
36：On&Off、POLSA、Stefano Rossi
32：ENTRY、topvalu​

 

[dddrees]

Here's a ranking of most shoe brands/shoemakers found on a Japanese forum. It overrated some brands that don't make their own shoes.

But I find it true at least for the top shoemakers.

Gatto *used* to make extremely refined shoes (and AFAIK JL Paris initially outsource their bespoke to Gatto), not sure about now after they got acquired by Lattanzi in 2006. "There are two wonders of Rome - Sistine chapel and Gatto shoes." - King Alfonso XIII of Spain.

JL Paris and Lattanzi are definitely leader in the bespoke world, far above most others. Similar can be said for Massaro. Zintala is now part of Lattanzi. Berluti and Corthay come right below them.

EG is rated better than G&G by most Japanese literatures.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

76：GATTO
74：JOHN LOBB (PARIS)、Silvano Lattanzi
72：ZINTALA、MASSARO

70：Berluti、Corthay、EDWARD GREEN、PIERRE HARDY
68：ANTHONY CLEVERLEY、ARTIOLI、a.testoni、AUBERCY、GAZIANO&GIRLING、J.M. WESTON、Saint Crispin's、TANINO CRISCI、ZILLI、FOSTER & SON、GIUSEPPE ZANOTTI DESIGN、MANOLO BLAHNIK
66：BETTANIN & VENTURI、F.lli Giacometti、Stefano Bemer、Poulsen Skone、VASS、Sergio Rossi、RENE CAOVILLA
64：AUTHENTIC SHOE & Co、BONORA、EDUARD MEIER、Enzo Bonafe、GEORGE CLEVERLEY
　　Hall&Marks、Heinrch Dinkelacker、Napolitano Rachele
　　Santoni、Schnieder Boots、MAXVERRE、Salvatore Ferragamo、Stefano Branchini、HENRY MAXWELL、Christian Louboutin

62：Bemer's、Church's、Crockett & Jones、
　　SILVANO MAZZA、STEFANO BI、SUTOR MANTELLASSI、Walker&Gunn、Roger Vivier
60：Alden、Alfred Sargent、BOLLINI、Campanile、DUCAL、F・O・G Forest of Gingko、MASTERLLOYD
　　MORESCHI、orazio by Napolitano、Silvano Sassetti、VICINI、銀座ヨシノヤ、三陽山長、大塚製靴M-5
58：BALLY、BARRETT、CARMINA、Cheany、DI MELLA、Dieter Kuckelkorn、francheschetti、Gerard Sene
　　GIANO、GRENSON、HARRIS、JIMMY CHOO、Perfetto、REGAIN、SHETLAND FOX、Tricker's、MARK BLADOG
56：Allen-Edmonds、ENDLESS、foot the coacher、JOHN WHITE、KOKON
　　MAGNANNI、Meccariello、MEERMIN、Paraboot、POLLINI、soffice&solid、TOD'S、YANKO、ZAK、宮城興行

54：42ND ROYAL HIGHLAND、BARRATS、BARKER BLACK、BRIAN CRESS、BUCCHUS、Cento Felina、Cordwainer
　　FRANCESCO BENIGNO、HESCHUNG、JOHNSTON&MURPHY、Loake、NEW & LINGWOOD、PELUSO、Sanders、SCOTCH GRAIN
52：BRUNO MAGLI、Cole Haan、FABI、Florsheim Imperial、John Spencer
　　LAUDINO CACCIN、J.A.RAMIS、JALAN SRIWILAYA、Union Imperial、Zenobi
50：ALEJANDRO、Antonio Rufo、Berwick、Brecos、DOUCAL'S、REGAL、van Bommel、神匠
48：Calzoleria Toscana、Franco Lione、Madras、Padrone、Treading Post、Pertini

46：BOEMOS、Ecco、Kenford、Geox、VISARUNO
44：GIANCARLO MORELLI、VOICE
42：Bon Step、Florsheim、Hush Puppies
40：HYDRO-TECH

38：CEDAR CREST、Guy Laroche、HARUTA、Hawkins、Michiko London、Texcy Luxe
36：On&Off、POLSA、Stefano Rossi
32：ENTRY、topvalu

Just a few thoughts when I look at this list.

For the most part I think this agrees with most sentiments that you see on SF. For the most part anyway. However the list isn't even credited to a specific source or nor does it provide any reasons for any of the rankings so its just another list that really doesn't have that much credibility.

There are so many brands that I don't have any personal experience with, but as you said it also includes brands which don't even make their own shoes. This in my opinion tends to muddy the waters a bit and it certainly would help if these weren't listed. The other thing I noticed is that the list includes shoemakers which make a few lines of shoes but it fails to mention that and which line of shoes earns these companies the higher ranking. This certainly could be very misleading to people who are unaware that various companies make various levels of shoes such as Churches, Crockett and Jones, Salvatore Ferragamo, and I am pretty sure Santoni to name a few.

I am surprised to see where G&G falls with regards to Edward Green and why Alfred Sargent would be ranked the same as Alden. In fact I might take issue why Carmina is ranked below Alden for example. But then again since the list isn't really credited to any specific source, it provides no reason why these companies were ranked the way they were.


Its interesting and I'm glad you posted it, heck it may even help generate some good discussion.

 

[chogall]

It's a summary from a discussion thread that perpetuated for many many years. This is the 6th generation thread.

Heritage is part of the consideration. It's very impactful in Japan as well as in UK/America.

Also, from dissection pictures, G&G isn't better made than EG and lacks the history, but as DWFII would say it's just comparing a whole bunch of hemmed shoes.

Alden ranks high as its Trad with long heritage compare to AS being just another shoe factory from the Detroit of shoe manufacturing.

 

[dddrees]



It's a summary from a discussion thread that perpetuated for many many years. This is the 6th generation thread.

Heritage is part of the consideration. It's very impactful in Japan as well as in UK/America.

Also, from dissection pictures, G&G isn't better made than EG and lacks the history, but as DWFII would say it's just comparing a whole bunch of hemmed shoes.

Alden ranks high as its Trad with long heritage compare to AS being just another shoe factory from the Detroit of shoe manufacturing.

See I thought we might strictly be talking about substance type items like quality of materials, level of finishing, design, style, cost, and customer service.. I had no idea the length of service had anything to do with this discussion. However I see no problem including heritage in the discussion but I certainly see it being problematic if you want to include it ias some sort of value when ranking various shoemakers. Heritage is something worth noting but it doesn't always reflect the current state of what they're actually making.