Shoe Appreciation: Norvegese, Bentivegna, Goyser, BIG Stitch & BIG Welts ONLY!

[hendrix]



Equally a number of Italian makers (judging by the youtube videos most of them) will not cut a feather ever, they just poke the awl through the insole.

‘Norwegian’ and ‘Norvegese’ are essentially the same construction. In both cases is the upper folded to the outside (check those drawings again).
The fact that quite a few Italian shoemakers (and possibly shoemakers in other parts of the world as well) never do cut a feather is a question of training and experience. They will not cut a feather for hand-welted work either. They have never been trained in that technique, or have at some later point decided this step being unnecessary. After a number of years they will be very good at poking the awl through the insole without the depth-guide of the inside feather.
I neither read Italian, nor have I access to Italian shoemaking textbooks. so I don't know what is considered 'good practice' in traditional Italian shoemaking.

Me like feather better,
inseaming a new insole made more easy if inseam or insole get damage.

Great info guys.
This is an interesting question.

Why would resoling a shoe with a feather be easier? Surely that's why you have a welt so you don't need to worry about the insole?

I actually PMed DW on this a while ago and one of the things he said is that if you wear through the sole it's more likely to damage the inseam stitching, which would normally be protected in the feather channel.

Piergiacomi channels a feather for his Norwegian stitched shoes but not for his regular handwelted ones - so it's not as if he doesn't know how to channel a feather.

 

[Son Of Saphir]



Why would resoling a shoe with a feather be easier? .

No sorry,
it not make resole more easy,
it make inseaming more easy if stitch to insole get damage.
Re stitch to feather more easy.

Re stitch to no feather can be more hard to put through old holes in insole because bristle need more curve motion and it can be more hard to put through.
lf awl needed to re open hole the insole can also get damaged and lose it strongness.
Re stitch to no feather take more skill to do.

 

[hendrix]

Ah yep, that makes sense.

A feather makes it easier to replace or restitch the welt in the event that it or the stitching becomes damaged.


Actually when I look at the videos of Piergiacomi's norwegian welting, he creates a channel as the inside feather, and then closes the channel after inseam, almost like you'd do on an outsole.

So many variations.

 

[hendrix]

Question:

Norwegian, Veldschoen, Goiser, Bentivegna, even regular old storm welt proclaim to offer added water protection.

I understand that in Veldschoen and Norwegian welting, the upper is turned out rather than in. Somehow, this is supposed to prevent water from wicking into the shoe?

A storm welt has a physical barrier which I suppose prevents water on the welt from wicking into the inseam? Similarly, Bentivegna and goiser have the welt on the outside so water won't wick to the inseam, but it could still get in through the stitching, right?

Surely the more natural path of water would be through the sole or through the upper anyway?

Has anyone actually experienced water damage to the inseam of theirs shoes, or been exposed to water in such a way that goiser/bentivegna/storm welt etc constructions would have markedly improved the outcome of the shoe?

The fact that Veldschoen and Goiser seem to derive from sports shoe construction gives a little credence to the argument, but I really can't see - physically, anyway- that these constructions would make much of a difference.

 

[hendrix]



bentivegna
- out turned upper
- L welt
- can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
- can be made with no feather
.

Great post, are you sure that the Bentivegna has an out turned upper? Does this fit underneath the L welt? Or does it just get shaved flat?



I found a nice diagram on Veldtschoen construction from this blog..
It looks like plain Veldtschoen is essentially cemented construction with a turned out upper.

On the other hand, welted-Veldtschoen looks to have the upper turned out over the top of the welt

I suppose the upshot of this is that there is no stitch that runs through the upper to the insole. Goiser, Bentivegna, plain handwelted, storm welt etc all have a stitch that runs through the upper into the insole, but this construction doesn't.

It's feasible that this could make it more waterproof.

 

[hendrix]



shoe construction guide

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

goiser/reverse welt
- in turned upper
- L welt on out side
- always a feather but never on edge - feather always little bit inside from edge (has to be this way with in turned upper)
normal hand welted shoe
- in turned upper
- normal flat welt
- can use a feather but never on edge - feather always little bit inside from edge (has to be this way with in turned upper)
- not always use feather
norvegese
- out turned upper
- flat bonwelt
- can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
- can be made with no feather
(some maker do Norwegian struction same as Norvegese)
bentivegna
- out turned upper
- L welt
- can be made with feather (only on edge but never in same area as goiser/reverse welt shoe)
- can be made with no feather
Veldschoen
- Out turned upper
- Can use flat bonwelt or no bonwelt
- In turned lining so always need feather little bit inside from edge like normal hand welted or goodyear welted shoe
- Out turned outside of upper
Blake rapid
- In turned upper
- Flat bonwelt
- No feather ever
Wood peg
- In turned upper
- Flat welt but never stitch to mid or outsole on outside - only stitched to insole and glue to mid or outsole
- Can do feather or no feather but always inseam little bit inside from edge
Important
- In turned upper never have feather on edge
- Out turned upper always have feather on edge or use no feather
- Goiser/reverse welt shoe always need a feather to join upper (it the only construction when outside upper need a feather ).
- Veldschoen is only construction when lining is on turned and outer upper is out turned.
- Wood peg is only construction when welt is glued to midsole or out sole.
me think this right now.
me check later to check it good.

This is a great list, we need to make some standard definitions for the purpose of discussion:

In the picture:
Norwegian (top left) - it has no welt. The inside and outside "feathers" are carved out to leave a pronounced holdfast ridge

Norvegese (bottom right) - Stitching goes through the side of the insole. Therefore there is no need to carve an outside feather. It can occasionally have an inside feather to hide the stitches.

Goiser - top right - there is a L shaped welt on the outside, and an inside and outside feather resulting in a normal holdfast. Called "Norwegian Welted" often because it's essentially Norwegian construction except an L shaped welt is added on the outside.

(ignore bottom left, the holdfast is canvas i.e. gemmed)

Also, braided stitching is usually a feature of all of these constructions but I don't want to go into the decorative side of this.

Now what I'm not fully understanding is the "feather" business.

My limited understanding is this:
a normal welted shoe has feathers channeled out on either side of the "holdfast" which builds it up as a ridge. The outside feather gives a place for the in turned upper to lie flat, while the inside feather gives a place for the stitches to sit, somewhat protected.

Norwegian stitched shoes also carve out an inside and outside feather.

Norvegese stitched shoes stitch into the side of the insole, so there is no need for an outside feather: Bengal Stripe's diagram shows a Norvegese stitched shoe with an inside feather

Then we could say:

Norwegian: has inside and outside feather.
Norwegese: inseam is stitched through side of insole, may or may not have an inside feather, never an outside feather
Goiser: Norwegian except has L shaped welt on outside
Bentivegna: Norvegese except has L shaped welt on outside.


So Norwegian carves out an inside and an outside feather, as does goiser, but Norvegese and Bentivegna always stitch through the side of the insole.


Problem with this:

Koronya shows him making a Norwegian shoe without an outside channel (except in the waist area). Now, I'd be happy enough to call this Norvegese, except that he also says that Goiser is exactly the same but with an added L shaped welt on the outside.

so, Son of Saphir, what is it that leads you to believe that Goiser has a feather further inside than Bentivegna?

 

[Son Of Saphir]



Great post, are you sure that the Bentivegna has an out turned upper?

Yes.

Does this fit underneath the L welt?

Yes.

Or does it just get shaved flat?

Never shaves flat for Bentivegna.
Reverse welted does get shaved flat.

I found a nice diagram on Veldtschoen construction from this blog..
It looks like plain Veldtschoen is essentially cemented construction with a turned out upper.

Look like some maker do it different way.
Many maker still gem lining under shoe.

On the other hand, welted-Veldtschoen looks to have the upper turned out over the top of the welt

lt different way again.
Could be to keep water out better so it not collect between welt.
Me think welt on top look more good.

It's feasible that this could make it more waterproof.

lt could be possible.
Veldtschoen construction is more for work boot and casual shoe so it make sense

 

[Son Of Saphir]



In the picture:

Norvegese (bottom right) It can occasionally have an inside feather to hide the stitches.

No need to hide stitches.
Like norwegian picture,
it make no sense to put feather further in with turned out upper.

]Goiser - top right - there is a L shaped welt on the outside, and an inside and outside feather resulting in a normal holdfast. Called "Norwegian Welted" often because it's essentially Norwegian construction except an L shaped welt is added on the outside.

"Goiser" and "norwegian welted" same.
Vass do Goiser little different from "norwegian welted" picture because extra stitch attached welt to mid sole but it still same thing.

]a normal welted shoe has feathers channeled out on either side of the "holdfast" which builds it up as a ridge. The outside feather gives a place for the in turned upper to lie flat, while the inside feather gives a place for the stitches to sit, somewhat protected.

Feather is the holdfast or a ridge,
.

]Norwegian stitched shoes also carve out an inside and outside feather.

see above post here

]Norvegese stitched shoes stitch into the side of the insole, so there is no need for an outside feather: Bengal Stripe's diagram shows a Norvegese stitched shoe with an inside feather

Norvegese can use no feather or it can use outside feather.

]Then we could say:
Norwegian: has inside and outside feather.

never

]Norwegese: inseam is stitched through side of insole, may or may not have an inside feather, never an outside feather

no feather or outside feather.
if norvegese like norwegian diagram it will have inside feather but this make no sense to me because it has out turned upper.

]Goiser: Norwegian except has L shaped welt on outside

almost,
but upper is turned out with norwegian and upper is cut off with Goiser.
Me wonder if norwegian picture is correct,
it seem wrong to me.

]Bentivegna: Norvegese except has L shaped welt on outside.

Yes.

]So Norwegian carves out an inside and an outside feather, as does goiser,

only one feather

]but Norvegese and Bentivegna always stitch through the side of the insole.

Yes,
and it can use feather on edge.

]Problem with this:
Koronya shows him making a Norwegian shoe without an outside channel (except in the waist area). Now, I'd be happy enough to call this Norvegese, except that he also says that Goiser is exactly the same but with an added L shaped welt on the outside.

Goiser can not be made that way because upper is not turned out and upper is cut off with goiser.
The koronya feather show it norvegese or could be bentivegna,
but it is almost same as Goiser and me see how Koronya say Goiser can be like Norvegese because basic stitching method can be same .

]so, Son of Saphir, what is it that leads you to believe that Goiser has a feather further inside that Bentivegna?

lt does not (me correct previous post)
Bentivegna have out turned upper so it need feather on edge of sole.

 

[hendrix]

Ah ok cool.

I think I'm getting it.

The Koronya post was confusing me. We will call the construction he is using "Norvegese".

Feather is the holdfast,
it not a ridge.

according to DW, the Holdfast is not the same as a feather:

Let me say first that technically speaking there is a holdfast in all the photos--the holdfast is simply that leather sandwiched between the stitched. I suppose that technically speaking, even GY could be said to have a holdfast even if it is canvas rather than linen.

What is not there in the last two photos is an inside channel (which will protect the stitches should a hole be worn in the outsole) or a feather (which allows the welt to be inset a bit under the insole such that it is protected and the inseam separated from the line of stitching that holds the outsole to the welt.)

so using these definitions:

Norwegian: has inside channel and outside feather. Upper is turned out. (why does it have an outside feather if the upper is turned out?)*
Norvegese: Like Norwegian except inseam is stitched through side of insole so it won't have an outside feather. may or may not have an inside channel.
Goiser: Norwegian except has L shaped welt on outside, and the upper is turned inside, like normal handwelting
Bentivegna: Like Norvegese in that the stitching enters through the side of the insole, except has L shaped welt on outside. So, like Norvegese, it will have no outside feather, but can have an inside channel.


*Alternatively, if Norwegian has no outside feather, what is the difference between Norwegian and Norvegese?

The more I read over your post the less difference I can tell between Norwegian and Norwegese. Could you explain this please?

 

[Son Of Saphir]

me make changes to post above about goiser and reverse welt and normal hand welt shoe.
it make more sense now.

me re read post above and correct some mistake in writing.
me say feather is not a ridge,
do not know why l said that.
A feather IS a ridge.

according to DW, the Holdfast is not the same as a feather:

True.
Feather needs to be carved out.
Holdfast is attached.
Both have same function but they created different.

me change post above.
"Goiser" and "norwegian welted" is same but Vass do little variation with extra stitch through welt and mid sole.

me get to rest of thread later.

 

[hendrix]



me re read post above and correct some mistake in writing.
me say feather is not a ridge,
do not know why l said that.
A feather IS a ridge.
True.
Feather needs to be carved out.
Holdfast is attached.
Both have same function but they created different.

No I think this is not true.

The "holdfast" is the ridge.

A "feather" is the valley running around the outside.

The "inner channel" is the valley running around the inside.

like this:
_^_
the left _ is the outer feather that the turned in upper would lie on.
the ^ is the holdfast.
the right _ is the inner channel that the inseamed stitching row lies in.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

DWFII sent me a pm with this, talking about these photos:

What is not there in the last two photos is an inside channel (which will protect the stitches should a hole be worn in the outsole) or a feather (which allows the welt to be inset a bit under the insole such that it is protected and the inseam separated from the line of stitching that holds the outsole to the welt.)

"Goiser" and "norwegian welted" is same but Vass do little variation with extra stitch through welt and mid sole.
me get to rest of thread later.

Many do the goiser like this.

I still haven't seen a picture of Goiser or Norwegian construction where there is both an outside feather and an inside channel (i.e. the ridge is further in and not near the edge, like you claim).

I can only find real images of norwegian construction where there is no outer feather, only an inside channel.

I can't find any images like the top left of the japanese diagram, where there is an inner channel as well as an outer feather.

 

[hendrix]

More confirmation of this from the Carreducker blog:

First you prepare the insole. Trim like a normal one, but instead of the normal holdfast, you ignore the outside part and just do the second cut, the inside part.

i.e. there is an inside channel but no outside feather.

So the japanese diagram, unless we see other evidence, is misleading.

But do you still believe that the goiser construction has an outer feather as well as an inner channel, and the ridge is further in from the edge?

 

[hendrix]

Just so we're not without Appreciation amidst this discussion:

#08 shell longwings with a Bentivegna welt. It really acts like a bumper bar and picks up most of the abuse from daily wear. Need to pick up some edge dressing...but I kinda like that all the scuffs show up along the welt.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

 

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