Shoe Fitting Question

[JFWR]

I have been doing some extensive shoe shopping and purchasing lately, and I have come to ask a question regarding fit in regards to length/width.

My general experience with most American shoes (AE and Alden) is that I normally fit into an 11.5 EEE. This is my "natural size"; however, I have also bought (and worn comfortably) 12 EEE, 12 E, and 13 D. Generally, 12 EEE is actually bit on the roomy size for me, but I prefer roomy over cramped, so it has never been a big issue for me.

Recently, I've purchased an Edward Green Chelsea captoe on the 82 last in their uk 11.5/12 e standard width. This shoe fits me quite comfortably. Also, I went to Crockett and Jones yesterday and tried on several shoes, finding that I generally take an 11.5 E or a 10.5 G for best comfort, whether in oxfords or in derbys.

My theory is that the following sizes suit my foot as a result of this.

11.5 EEE = UK 10.5 G
12 E
12.5 D = UK 11.5 E

Given there are virtually no sellers of American 12.5 D, I assume that given I can wear a 13 D just fine (especially in cordovan), that my real size would be closer to a 12.5 D.

Would this be a reasonable association of how the shoes widen with length and therefore my wide ball/toes of my shoes fit roughly at a 1/2 size increase, 1/2 width decrease beginning at 11.5 EEE?

Interestingly, I purchased a pair of AE Dundees in 11 EEE and I find those shoes too tight width wise. I'm getting them stretched as I really have a difficult time feeling comfortable in them. That would seem to go with my hypothesis that with every 1/2 size in length, I decrease 1/2 in width, so to properly fit into an 11.0 I'd need a 4E, which is a size that virtually no shoe company makes.

Is this a reasonable "rule of big toe" to go with going forward?

Of course, these all are rounded/almond toed lasts. I don't go for chiseled or soft square shoes, so that's not my concern, although I did try on a wholecut from C&J that fit me fine at UK 11.5 E.

 

[DWFII]

It's not uncommon for retailers to play fast and loose with customers perceptions about sizes. The result is that it is widely believed...almost as 'given wisdom' that sizes--lengths and widths..are casually interchangeable.

The foot has some fundamental structure that cannot be changed and which the owner of said foot ignores at his own peril.

Overall foot length is nearly the least of these simply because in a decently made shoe, the shoe always embodies some clearance between the length of the foot and the length of the shoe, inside the shoe. Traditionally for a med. round toe shoe , three full sizes was the standard clearance...each size being one-third of an inch.

That said, the foot and the actual "natural size" can almost be defined by the way the bones are arranged in the arch (midfoot)--from the back of the heel to the middle of the medial ball joint. Because this structure is comprised of bones and ligaments and because it is an arch, it is fairly important that it not be dismissed or regarded cavalierly. To support the foot and transfer the weight of the body, the arch must be fairly rigid and coherent.To the extent that the arch is ignored dismissed that supporting function is impaired and sometimes altered so as to be less effective than it "naturally" was.

It could fairly and accurately be said that the arch is the most important structure / part of the foot. When the arch doesn't do its job walking is uncomfortable or even impossible.

Shoes are made on lasts. Lasts are entirely rigid and unalterable. There is no equivocation about the length of the shoe which will be made on that last nor any question of the dimensions of the arch nor of the measurements from the back of the heel to the medial ball joint. If a last is designated 9D, for instance (or whatever European equivalent), that designation strictly specifies what the interior dimensions fo the last will be and where the medial ball joints should 'socket.'

Because the last is 'static' there is really no other interpretation.

The reason people think that they can fudge a size up or down or a width narrower / wider, is several-fold: The flesh--muscles and fat--allow some padding that eases discomfort (although may not ameliorate changes in foot structure over time).

And esp. as it applies to these misconceptions, manufacturers and shoe salesman neither agree on what actually constitutes (measurements, dimensions, etc.) a 9D, for instance, nor do they care very much one way or the other if the last they use meets a standard or not. It's caveat emptor to the nth degree in the case of shoes--the customer will fit himself and 50% of fit is in the mind of the buyer. It's not the responsibility of either the manufacurer or the salesman to ensure that you are fit or more importantly fit correctly and healthily.

Just because you can walk out of a store with no pinches doesn't mean that you have a good fit.

 

[JFWR]

It's not uncommon for retailers to play fast and loose with customers perceptions about sizes. The result is that it is widely believed...almost as 'given wisdom' that sizes--lengths and widths..are casually interchangeable.

The foot has some fundamental structure that cannot be changed and which the owner of said foot ignores at his own peril.

Overall foot length is nearly the least of these simply because in a decently made shoe, the shoe always embodies some clearance between the length of the foot and the length of the shoe, inside the shoe. Traditionally for a med. round toe shoe , three full sizes was the standard clearance...each size being one-third of an inch.

That said, the foot and the actual "natural size" can almost be defined by the way the bones are arranged in the arch (midfoot)--from the back of the heel to the middle of the medial ball joint. Because this structure is comprised of bones and ligaments and because it is an arch, it is fairly important that it not be dismissed or regarded cavalierly. To support the foot and transfer the weight of the body, the arch must be fairly rigid and coherent.To the extent that the arch is ignored dismissed that supporting function is impaired and sometimes altered so as to be less effective than it "naturally" was.

It could fairly and accurately be said that the arch is the most important structure / part of the foot. When the arch doesn't do its job walking is uncomfortable or even impossible.

Shoes are made on lasts. Lasts are entirely rigid and unalterable. There is no equivocation about the length of the shoe which will be made on that last nor any question of the dimensions of the arch nor of the measurements from the back of the heel to the medial ball joint. If a last is designated 9D, for instance (or whatever European equivalent), that designation strictly specifies what the interior dimensions fo the last will be and where the medial ball joints should 'socket.'

Because the last is 'static' there is really no other interpretation.

The reason people think that they can fudge a size up or down or a width narrower / wider, is several-fold: The flesh--muscles and fat--allow some padding that eases discomfort (although may not ameliorate changes in foot structure over time).

And esp. as it applies to these misconceptions, manufacturers and shoe salesman neither agree on what actually constitutes (measurements, dimensions, etc.) a 9D, for instance, nor do they care very much one way or the other if the last they use meets a standard or not. It's caveat emptor to the nth degree in the case of shoes--the customer will fit himself and 50% of fit is in the mind of the buyer. It's not the responsibility of either the manufacurer or the salesman to ensure that you are fit or more importantly fit correctly and healthily.

Just because you can walk out of a store with no pinches doesn't mean that you have a good fit.

Thanks for the very insightful post.

My feet are very flat. Would the arch support matter as strongly?

 

[DWFII]

My feet are flat too. Doesn't negate anything I said. But I suspect that the length from heel to ball joint (where the ball will socket in the shoe) would be perhaps even a little more important unless the shoe has a very low heel.